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02/04/1993 GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION 4 MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 4. 1993 The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton Road, Grand Terrace, California, on February 49 1993 at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman Dan Buchanan. PRESENT: Dan Buchanan, Chairman Jim Sims, Vice-Chairman Moire Huss, Commissioner Ray Munson, Commissioner Fran Van Gelder, Commissioner Doug Wilson, Commissioner Patrizia Materassi, Planning Director Maria C. Muett, Associate Planner Larry Mainez, Planning Technician ABSENT: Stanley Hargrave, Commissioner PLEDGE: Doug Wilson, Commissioner PLANNING COMMISSION WORKSHOP CONVENED AT 6:30 P.M. League of California Planners Institute Planning Director presented the material for the League of California Planners Institute in March 1993. The Planning Director explained the focus of the Institute JLS for Planning Commissioners. The Planning Director recommended that the new Commissioners attend this Institute as it is very beneficial for new Commissioners. Discussion on the limited department budget and the possibility that the Planning Director would not be able to attend unless those going would consider car pooling. It was decided by the Planning Commission that the two new Commissioners, Huss and Wilson, would attend with Vice-Chairman Jim Sims as alternate. r ll 1 Congestion Management Plan The Planning Director explained the analysis process used by staff to determine the numbers and comparison thresholds in the staff report. She explained that instead of reviewing the detailed technical report in their packets, staff is now able to determine feasible thresholds for the City. Chanize to Planning Commissioner's Terms - Memo from Mavor Matteson Chairman Buchanan asked for any other information comments from either staff or the Planning Commission before moving onto the memorandum from the Mayor regarding the proposed change of Planning Commissioner's terms. He stated that Commissioner Hargrave would not be attending this evening's meeting as he is out of town. He asked if there was any comments from staff. The Planning Director stated that there was nothing to be stated other than that any of their comments could be taken by verbatim minutes. Chairman Buchanan clarified that the alternatives for conveying the Planning Commission's comments could either be nearly verbatim minutes or a consensus could be drafted into a letter format for the City Council to view. He acknowledged the presence of two City Council members, Councilmen Singley and Carlstrom, and they can relate some of the Planning Commission comments. He asked if the Planning Commission should decide how to proceed now or wait until after the workshop to make that decision. Vice-Chairman Sims asked for clarification. Chairman Buchanan stated although the memorandum from Mayor Matteson does not specifically state if he assumed that the purpose of the memorandum was to ask for a response on the proposal that the City Council is considering. It seemed appropriate to communicate that response by either asking staff to take verbatim minutes of this portion of the meeting or come to a consensus (majority or minority format) to convey comments to the City Council. Commissioner Van Gelder asked Chairman Buchanan for his viewpoint as to why he felt the City Council was asking for a response from the Planning Commission. l 2 The Planning Director explained that it was really up to the Planning Commission if they wanted to relay their input to the City Council. Staff has already provided input so that it�can be taken into consideration, and that it is basically a City Council issue. The Planning Commission can provide their input. Vice-Chairman Sims stated that they are all volunteers and the City Council can do whatever it chooses. He feels he is here to serve. Chairman Buchanan stated that Commissioner Hargrave is unable to attend this evening. He asked Chairman Buchanan to read his comments into the record regarding this issue. (Commissioner Hargrave's Comments via Chairman Buchanan) - He thinks that a change in Planning Commissioner's terms is a bad idea. He feels that the City should look to keeping people on the Commission that have some experience, background and familiarity with the Planning issues. He felt there is a benefit to longer terms because of the experience and the ability to understand the issues that have to be dealt with as they develop somewhat slowly. The memorandum seems to imply that the purpose is to arouse individual Council members to appoint Planning Commissioners. He wanted to point out that Council members do not appoint Planning t� Commissioners that the Council as a body appoints Planning Commissioners. He stated that State law requires independent judgement based on Planning and landuse criteria in issues rather than political or policy type decisions from this body. The Planning Commission role is an advisory role not a policy making role. The City Council always has the option to override or change any decision or anything else the Planning Commission acts on. He strongly urges the Planning Commission to send a strong message of opposition to this proposal back;to City Council. Chairman Buchanan conveyed his own perspective. He.stated that he tends to agree with some of the points made by Commissioner Hargrave. Obviously the Planning Commission does not really have a say in this decision; the City Council is entitled to set what terms they feel are appropriate. There are very good reasons for not changing the length of terms to the extent that the City Council is considering the notion of individual City Council members appointing Planning Commission members, he feels that is a bad idea. He bases this on his experience of working with jurisdictions that do that, it works very poorly. He stated that the Planning Commission has frequently discussed the learning curve that it takes to deal with some of the issues, such as the technical Congestion Management Plan before the body this evening. F � 3 Someone new on the Planning Commission with an inexperienced perspective have a harder time understanding all of the factors. There is a lot of value in the longer terms allowing people to develop the comfort level and expertise, you have to be able to understand some of the technical aspects of what is being dealt with in order to make sound decisions. The Planning Commission is not a policy making body and should be working within a sandwiched guideline and criteria and doing so in an objective manner. It is the City Council's role to set up the City policy and direction. He encourages the City Council, if it is a source of concern to them, to take a more active approach to communicate in policy directions back to the Planning Commission rather than alter the make up of the Planning Commission body and do so on a frequent basis. To some extent there maybe some difficulty to obtain volunteers for the amount of time and energy that it takes to be competent in this kind of process with two year terms as opposed to four year terms. He would hate to see a situation develop where the purpose or effect of the shorter time period are to remove from the Planning Commission viewpoints that are not in harmony with the City Council, just for that purpose. He stated that there is a distinct advantage of having a wide variety of viewpoints especially on a seven member body and given the fact that the Planning Commission's role is more technical, measuring a project's compliance against the criteria set by the City Council that there is not a great danger in a Planning Commissioner having a different political viewpoint than the City Council. He stated that there tends to be a designation in the value _ of Planning Commission review when the Planning Commission is designed to reflect only certain viewpoints. He stated that he certainly does not want anymore read into that statement than what he intended, as he only intended by that comment as he only meant he was bothered by the comment in the memorandum of, "...it would be most useful if we could take advantage of the elections momentum and appointments could be done right away." He felt that there is a distinct advantage, especially in a community of this size, to isolate the landuse decisions of a body like the Planning Commission from political momentum, whichever way it is going. He stated that he is not try to reflect any particular viewpoint, except that when a Planning- _ Commission becomes politicized its benefit to the community is significantly diminished based on his own experience with Planning Commission where individual members are appointed by individual supervisors or Council members to represent a particular district with a particular viewpoint, it almost makes the Planning Commission function superfluous. The appeal process from the Planning Commission to the City Council or Board of Supervisors becomes ineffective becomes the same viewpoints are in place there. There isn't anything that the Planning Commission cannot do that can't be undone by the City Council if it is done contrary to their policy. As far as he is aware the Planning Commission has never acted in a way contrary to i 4 - City Council policy at least during his five years with this body that he can recall. He has never had any inclination that the Planning Commission was acting on certain types of items,contrary to the way the City Council has set some kind of policy. He felt that the Planning Commission has done a very diligent job trying to look for the City Council policy behind ordinances to insure that the project meets those policies. In general, while he doesn't dispute the City Council's ability to make whatever type of change they want he felt that the way it is currently established is the most effective and beneficial for the City of Grand Terrace. Vice-Chairman Sims said he was very disappointed to see this. He read into some of the overtones of this memorandum that Stan mentioned to Dan and that Dan said himself seem a little self-serving to him. He said he has been here since September '87, and it didn't feel like he served five years, but he asked himself, "Why did I come here to begin with?" and as he remembers way back then, and he sees Ray and Fran have been here much longer, he had a purpose and wanted to serve the community and that is why he volunteered. He said his neighbor Jeri asked if he would be interested, and he wondered at the time what he would be doing on this type of body. Being an engineer, he deals with Planning Commissions and City Councils all the time, but it was an entertaining and enchanting thought, and when he interviewed with Council, they beat him up pretty good, and he didn't think he had a chance after he walked out of that meeting, and he was pleasantly surprised the next day to find out they voted him in. He said he was very disappointed to see this; it's an emotional thing now. He said Dan brought up a lot of good technical reasons and he applauds him for that, but it comes right down to maybe the ego being a little bit bruised, and it looks like this could have been presented in a little bit less political light. He said Dan is right: they are not here for the politics, even though he has seen in the past that people use them as a spring-board into the political arena, but not all of them have that aspiration to do that; some of them are here to make a better community and to assist the City Council, but he said since he has been here, he has never seen so much consistency among the people that have been on this body. They've voted the same way on issues, discussing issues in a similar manner, and it is actually quite uncanny, as he doesn't think there have been many of them who have been to a point where they all vote no erratically or yes erratically - it has been very consistent, and he thinks it takes a lot for getting used to each other and knowing how each other thinks and what values they have according to the City that they serve. He thinks it's a bad mistake, now, when they voted, him on he hadn't been told this, that they could vote him off just like that. He said that's okay, too, if you are not doing a good job, then you shouldn't'be here, and they should be the one's that really should judge that because they appoint them to begin with, but he just 5' didn't like the way this came off - it says, "To take advantage of election momentum" and "appointments can be done right away", he saw this and wondered,what do they want, resignations? Fine, they've got it, if that's what you really want - if that's what's going to be good for this City, to serve the City, that's the idea, because he's seen entire Planning Commissions replaced in one fell swoop; look at Beaumont - that's exactly what happened, and that is within the power. He said to get this memorandum in his packet and for him to just look at it was really disappointing. Commissioner Wilson said he intends to have a letter to the Mayor and a reply to this,in fact it is half-drafted now, and contrary to his colleagues, there are a couple of things here that he can see some positive situations that, although he was definitely concerned about the language as far as the political end of it, which he thinks is obvious and has been talked about, he thinks their best situation when they go to serve a community situation here would be actually paid for it, can a public situation or if they are just volunteering, as the whole concept of this thing is something that happened when they first started the country is people would volunteer to make a free society actually work right, and it takes a little bit of guts and a little bit of conscience, and you really have to research things and gain an understanding of them and not just shoot from the hip. He said as far as he is concerned, when it comes to the continuity and experience required, he thinks a portion of it, at least from his end of it since he has been in it just a little while, he has gained an understanding of the kind of screening that takes place. He said this is the second time he has tried to be a Planning Commissioner, so he has been exposed to the screening process, and to him, it is a fairly strong screening process, so that some of the experience that was needed would be there when it needed to be drawn upon. He said he would like to publicly express his desire to see a stronger amount of communication between the Council and the Commission, stating that since he has been here, even though he knows there are items they act on as an advisory board and make recommendations to the City Council, he has yet to have an actual conversation with a City Council member about those kinds of items, and that concerns him, and maybe that's his fault, and maybe he should take it upon himself to give a call to one of the City Council members when those things are taking place, but as far as he is concerned, better communication is going to make the City run better. He said everyone knows he is a pro-business person, and he is also a pro-community person at the same time. He said he has taken it upon himself to talk to a few people around the neighborhood to get a better understanding as they approach this Task Force situation on the General Plan, and he is a little bit concerned about the concept of some terms-ending arbitrarily in June '93 primarily because of this Task Force and this General Plan consideration; he is a little bit afraid of that. He said he doesn't have a problem with a two-year term. If somebody is doing a job, then they belong 6 there, and he won't have to worry about whether or not somebody is going to throw him out, but if he is not doing his job and not benefitting this community, then he deserves to be out looking for something else to be doing as a volunteer - he needs to gain some more experience to be able to do that. He said he is very much in favor of the Chairman, Vice-Chairman elected every year and he thinks they will find if they read through the minutes that was his position when the topic came up to begin with, so he thinks in expressing these opinions, he believes that he shares some of the same concerns his colleagues do, but he does have a couple other opinions. He said his primary objective is to make sure that this City is getting the best it can possibly get from its citizens, and that means that if it takes a little stronger communication between the citizens and the people that have been appointed or elected to do the jobs, then it is probably appropriate for them to stimulate some more citizen participation. He said they have some interesting and very important issues to discuss and have had several in the past and they don't have a lot, so he thinks it is up to each and every one of them to generate that kind of thing - the City Council as well as the Planning Commission, staff, everybody, and get more people so that they all don't feel like they're in the dark. He said he honestly would emphasize that concept rather than the concern about replacing somebody per political situations. He thinks they really need to stimulate some participation in this City, because they have a lot of intelligent, very nice people in it, and they're in a very critical era in their development as a City and he thinks it would be important v� for them to do this, and this is his opinion, so he will have a letter over to the Mayor that will respond. Commissioner Van Gelder said she would look at this for herself just from a little bit different standpoint. She said the number of years she has been on the Commission have certainly been exciting times for her. She has lived here since 1958 and there came a time in her life when she felt she could give something back to the community, and that is why she did apply. She said she is not a professional engineer, she is not an attorney, she just considers herself Mrs. John Q. Public, and she tends to look at things from that vantage point. She said she certainly hopes she can continue serving, but if she can't, she will have been here seven years by June, and if the Council feels someone else can do her job better, that is okay with her. She said she is not a person who needs a lot of accolades and back-patting and that sort of thing. She does not usually attend the events that are held for volunteers only because she does not need that kind of thing, it is riot why she is here. She said the other point she would like to make is that at one time, she can remember Council asking them for their opinion on whether they thought the Planning Commission should be reduced to five people instead of seven, and it was pretty much a unanimous agreement at that time that it would be best to leave it at seven rather than five for two reasons: one being that the more people you have, 7 the more input you have perhaps to make a little bit better decision; and the other was that since there are five council people, then the next step would �1 be that they would each appoint someone. She said having been affiliated with other government entities, those in politics soon learn that it isn't always what something is but it is what it is perceived to be, in fact, one of the (inaudible) council persons told her after she was appointed that they were very much in favor of having each council person appoint somebody,and then, if they didn't vote the way that person wanted them to, they are out of here, so it is always what it is but what it's perceived to be, and this is a very dangerous thing, whether you're talking about Council of Planning Commissioners, so she would trust that the City Council, in their hopefully good judgement, would take these items into consideration when they're making their final decisions. Commissioner Munson said it seems like everyone has already said what he wanted to say, basically. He said he himself is afraid that (inaudible) failed, that one council person appoints one member, and he doesn't vote the way that member wants him to vote, he's gone. (Inaudible) different than what the Council (inaudible) to say. (Inaudible.) He said he thinks this Commission (inaudible) has done a very good job for the City, and he sees no fault with this body as it sits here tonight. (Inaudible.) He said he sees no reason to change it, and he will (inaudible) to tell the Council (inaudible). Commissioner Huss said she hasn't been here very long, but she has suspicions that something triggered it. She thought that if the Council does have'any problem (inaudible) maybe they should come watch a meeting; it's kind of nice to see a couple of them here tonight. She said if there are some problems with(inaudible),they could contact somebody,somehow,personally; maybe things were said or things were being relayed, she doesn't know, but she has a suspicion herself, too. She said it does look like something. triggered it. She said she kind of agreed that (inaudible), and if it's not good, and they do come to the meetings and don't think they are doing a good job, then she could see having a letter like this sent out. JI1::-SINGLEY, COUNCILMAN 11996 PARADISE G.T. Councilman Singley said the reason Councilman Carlstrom and he attended this meeting was specifically because of this memo. He said he senses a fear on their part that the reason for the memo is because they are not satisfied with what they have done, and that is completely erroneous; they are very satisfied. He agreed with Mr. Wilson that they need to take a more active part, and that is one of the reasons for the memo. He wanted to clarify a 8 i misconception, and he stated he didn't know where it came from, that individual Council people were going to appoint Planning Commission members. He said this is not their intent whatsoever. He said individual Council people do not act that way, and that has been policy ever since he was on the Council four years ago for a two-year term. He said they have this body - they do not individually appoint anybody to a Planning Commission, so it takes a 3-2 vote to appoint"a Commission. He agreed with the concern that if individual Council people were appointing individual Planning Commission members, he thinks they would become entirely ineffective. He said the reason for reducing from a four-year to a two-year is to allow, as Council members, every two years they're elected, (inaudible), and every two years they have a changeover. He said they have a different direction, and that is why the General Plan is revised every five years and that is why Council is elected every two years. He said what they would like to do and the purpose of this change, this will allow them to every two years praise them for what they are doing, if they,want to look at it that way, not necessarily. (inaudible) people, obviously Mr. Hargrave ran in an election, he ran against him, and he stated he disagreed with a lot of the things he said in the election and a lot of his opinions, but this is not the point; it won't be him to take Mr. Hargrave off this Commission - it would be the entire Council if that is what happens. He said they could' have done that simply by asking for his resignation, but that is not the point; the point is to make this a progressive _ Council, so that they do communicate and they do have more contact. He said-talking to them once every four years really is ineffective, and they are right, they need to come more often. He apologized if the wrong impression was given by a memo that was directed in a positive manner, but the Council as he is aware of is very pleased with the way the Planning Commission works. He said they follow the Planning Commission on a number of things and he knows they (inaudible) on a number of things also, but that's as they say, that dirty word "politics", and they are influenced by the people in the audience also. He wanted to make it clear that it is not the intent of this Council person to favor an individual appointment of any person here - that would be done as the body of the Council, and in his opinion, they are doing a great job._He said the thought that they are going to do this because of the momentum of the election is partially it, but nobody's term is up until June, and that is five or six months from now, so what was done in the election won't have an effect - what they are going to do is review what is going on and look at the way different Commissioners look at the way the City's growing, he is going to be involved in the Task Force as much as he can and the General Plan. He said they are going to look at a lot of things, and they want to become more involved and he thinks they have a very good Council. He said he entertains any questions they might have that he can answer, and to remember that he is one Councilperson of five. , I 9 Chairman Buchanan said he appreciates these comments,and reading the first paragraph of the memo, he thinks he can see how the language wasn't as carefully crafted as it could have been, because it makes a comment that the main goal is to allow newly voted Council. members to appoint representatives, and this gives a clear impression that... Councilman Singley said he thinks it should have been said to allow newly elected Council people to have input. Chairman Buchanan suggested "participate in the appointment". He said he thinks his concern isn't so much the difference between a four-year and a two- year term, as he can honestly tell him that he would have volunteered to participate on the Planning Commission and apply for a position even if it had been a two-year term; he didn't do it because he thought he would be locked into four years, as it's not going to make him rich, on the other hand, he thinks where it really comes down to it for him is he thinks this Council should seriously consider the importance of the political acts that appointing Planning Commission members and to the degree that they would like to see or not see politics creep into the process of this body. He said he thinks it would be very destructive if it ever got to the point, and by no means is he suggesting it has, but he thinks it would be destructive to see it get to the point where people with the prevalently unpopular viewpoint are removed from the Planning Commission because of that viewpoint or, take him, for example, he has no intent of ever running for a City Council seat, but if they had the impression that he did and his term was up, they could very easily envision the scenario where people would be removed from the Planning Commission so that it wouldn't be used as the launching pad for a political run. He said it bothers him to see that type of politicalization, what essentially is more of a technical and administrative function that he likes to see them fulfilling here; not setting policy but implementing policy and taking testimony to assure that the City Council's policies and criteria are being met by the particular project they are considering. He said his biggest concern about this was the tone that there should be more political aspect to the Planning Commission, and main, if it's the City Council's conclusion that this is a more appropriate function, obviously that is within their jurisdiction to make and he wouldn't ever dispute that. He said politics in this country, if he can make an analogy, go through pendulum swings or ebbs and flows, however you want to look at it, not that (inaudible) like the Supreme Court Justices are, but the Federal Judiciary in this country are appointed for long- term, for life, essentially, and serve as a check and balance to the political variations. (Inaudible) to see conservative Supreme Courts during times of liberal Congress and Presidencies and liberal courts in the times of conservative Congresses and Presidencies, because it has a balancing effect; not that we are a Supreme Court here that they have that kind of influence 10 or power, but he thinks the diversity of input that is available for a seven- member body like this where there isn't a policy-making role, it is very helpful to the City, and because of that his concern isn't so much whether it is two years of four years - it is what the City Council does with those terms. Councilman Singley said he understands his concerns, stating that all he can tell him is that the word "political' has a negative connotation, and whether they like it or not, the Planning Commission is a quasi-political body, something like 75% of all council members come from their city Planning Commissions. He said, believe it or not, that.is highly recommended and he thinks that is wonderful,because'what better way to learn how the City works than being on the Planning Commission. He said he unfortunately didn't have that four years ago when he wasp appointed, and he stumbled quite a bit and have since then, and he does rely on a lot of things they say. He said they do respect them, and he wanted to clarify that it is not an individual councilman who is going to appoint anybody - the purpose is to get them more involved in the Planning Commission on an every two-year basis, reviewing the people that are on there, reviewing what their motives are, politics, whatever you want to call it, but reviewing what their mind set is on development, on the General Plan, on different policies that the City is moving to, pro-business, slow growth, a number of issues. He said he thinks Council has to have that ability every two years because the Council is selected every two years to look at that. He said there is a cooling-down period of about six months before ( their terms are up anyway, and he really believes that people that are on the Council now will look at people that are coming up that (inaudible), and I can't tell you exactly who, (inaudible). He said everybody is doing a great job as far as he could tell; he knows" Mr. Sims was on the Planning Commission when he was on four years ago, Ray was on, Fran and (inaudible) and Dan. He said he has never had a problem, and he has felt guilty several times to go against them on a number ofissues, but they do a good job and he reads their minutes (inaudible). He said he just wanted to show them it is not their intention to say they are not doing a good job; it is not their intention to downgrade the Planning Commission; it is really not their intention to politicize - it is to make them more aware and more in touch with them; that is probably a better term- he doesn't like the word politicize, but (inaudible). The Planning Director said she thought they needed to start the public hearing as they are late already. Commissioner Van Gelder said he used the phrase in talking about the selection of commissioners relative to the direction the City is taking and that sort of thing, and she certainly' can understand that they would not want someone who votes no against some of these things continuously, but she thinks they have to recognize the fact that there are some people who are - I 11 i going to vote no on occasion, and they can't squash that. Chairman Buchanan said he thinks that the fact that they have had two council members here and they can produce some extensive minutes on this is probably sufficient. He said if any Commissioners have, like Doug is intending to do, a particular point that they want to stress, they maybe can do something in writing on their own. He said he (inaudible) a lot of diversity of comments here, so he doesn't think it would really behoove them time to (inaudible) that into a letter or something. He said he thinks their general consensus seems to be if there is nothing wrong, why,fix it, but if the City Council does decide to make it two years, please recognize the diversity of voices are very helpful for them to make their decisions. GENE CARLSTROM 12040 ROSEDALE AVENUE G.T. Councilman Carlstrom said he likes to see in the Planning Commission that people are well-versed in engineering, business and people that have been here for a good number of years have stability in'the community before it became a City, like Ray, and to him, this is very valuable, because now they have input that is diverse. He said something might.be right from an engineering standpoint,but when it comes to a human standpoint,it might not make much sense, and out of this group here, with Fran, Moire and the five gentlemen, he is sure that if something got off a little bit to the left here, there is enough balance here to bring it back to where it should be, and he likes to see that. He said Grand Terrace, from a political standpoint, would probably like to see another lady on the Council, and it was evidenced by this last election.which he won by the landslide that he did, which was (inaudible) about 10 votes (inaudible) vote that came his way. He said he would hope that what this instigated doesn't have a negative effect on anybody that is representing this Planning Commission, because he has spent many hours reading over the hours that he knows they have put into their jobs, and he knows that it's a long a arduous task, and he is just thankful that somebody else has to do that for him, and that all he has to do is read the highlights and come up with a decision that he has to vote on at the City Council, so he is very happy that he and Jim were here tonight to get in on the discussion, and he would like to say that he is very happy with the Planning Commission. Chairman Buchanan said he appreciates both of them taking their time to come down and talk to them about this because, obviously, it had something of an emotional impact as well as all the practical and technical viewpoints that they have expressed. 12 - PLANNING COMMISSION WORKSHOP ADJOURNED PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING CONVENED PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: None. ITEM #1 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES - JANUARY 21, 1993 MOTION PCM-93-13 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES - JANUARY 21, 1993 Commissioner Munson made a motion to approve the January 21, 1993 minutes. Commissioner Van Gelder seconded. Chairman Buchanan stated there are a couple of spots where it indicates where he made a motion to do something, and he doesn't remember making the motions. He said on page 4, the meeting minutes of January 7 and on PCM-93-11 on top of page 5 to continue the CUP. The Planning Director said they,would check it. MOTION VOTE PCM-93-13 Motion carries. 6-0-1-0. Commissioner Hargrave absent. ITEM #2 CUP-92-05 GRAND TERRACE LAWNMOWER REPAIR-'MERLE NEWLAN AND RICHARD ARANT (HENRY JAY - PROPERTY OWNER) 22181 BARTON ROAD G.T. AN APPLICATION FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A LAWNMOWER REPAIR SHOP IN THE GENERAL COMMERCIAL SUBAREA OF THE BARTON ROAD SPECIFIC PLAN The Planning Director said that the applicant has withdrawn, but she had no specifics. - ' 131 Chairman Buchanan said if they indefinitely continue the item, and the applicant does not resubmit, it just dies a natural death. He said this allows the applicant to re-notice a hearing without there being a new application fee. MOTION PCM-9344 CUP-92-05 Vice-Chairman Sims made a motion to continue CUP-92-05 indefinitely. Commissioner Wilson second. MOTION VOTE PCM-93-14 Motion carries. 6-0-1-0. Commissioner Hargrave absent. ITEM #3 DU-93-01 LUXMEE SERVICE, INC. (SIEGFRIED KOTZ - PROPERTY OWNER) 22737 BARTON ROAD G.T. AN APPLICATION FOR DETERMINATION OF USE FOR A TELEMARKETING CHARITABLE FUND-RAISER USE IN THE VILLAGE COMMERCIAL SUBAREA OF THE BARTON ROAD SPECIFIC PLAN The Associate Planner presented the staff report. The Planning Director stated that they can not issue the business license with no fee, and she recommended deleting this portion from the condition. Chairman Buchanan said on other Determinations of Use they have simply made determinations, but in this case, the Planning Dire-tor is asking them to.director her to specifically list this, and he asked if there was a reason for this. The Planning Director said that sometimes people want to do surveys and calls, and there is nothing similar in the Barton Road Specific Plan, and she thought it would just add some flexibility. Chairman Buchanan said he would hate to see Grand Terrace become known as the location for boiler room telemarketing scams. He said he hates to see staff go through the process of amending the Barton Road Specific Plan for 14 this. The Planning Director said anytime they would have any major amendments, (inaudible). Chairman Buchanan said this is listed as a condition of approval, and it doesn't really seem to be in place. The Planning Director said she mentions it here because, instead of being a Determination of Use just for' the specific business, it would serve two purposes. Chairman Buchanan said he thinks this is collateral to a condition of approval. He said she has recommended that they made this Determination of Use based on some conditions, and one of them is that staff process something, and this really doesn't tie in and he doesn't like the idea of directing staff to process the necessary amendments to include it either as a condition of approval or as a specific direction from this body. He said if staff thinks it should be included, staff should include it on their list of things they are preparing to eventually come to the Commission with, and then they can explain why it is there when they do, but he didn't think they want to give their direction to staff to go out and set about to amend it to include telemarketing. t J Commissioner Munson said there is too much bad publicity about telemarketing. (Inaudible.) Commissioner Van Gelder saidis frightening for her to just assume things, and she asked if they were to assume that because they are registered by the State of California Attorney General's Office that this makes them legitimate, as she doesn't think it does. She said the Attorney General's Office doesn't have staff enough to even follow up on things like this, and she doesn't feel very comfortable with it. She didn't feel an emotional issue is what they should be basing their decision on, but they can't help but do that. Chairman Buchanan said from a land use standpoint, they are saying they want to do telemarketing, and he asked if this is a permitted use in this area. He questioned whether or not 'it was within their jurisdiction to make a judgement as to the legitimacy of the particular business. The Planning Director mentioned that she is a little bit influenced by the economic situation, as right now; there is almost a 60%vacancy rate, so staff is trying to be flexible if they can. She said they felt this. use is like an office use and there will be no traffic or noise, and they will probably be there for 15 about six months, until they call everybody here, and then they move out. 1 Commissioner Van Gelder asked who would look out for the community, as it has to start somewhere. Vice-Chairman Sims asked if the reason why staff feels this is allowable is because it brings in revenue to the businesses they will reside at to help them out with their vacancy. The Planning Director said it helps the City in terms of not becoming a wasteland as they have a high vacancy rate, and she felt it was not going to make a negative impact. Vice-Chairman Sims said it benefits the property owner who we are trying to take care of, but he was trying to relate to Commissioner Van Gelder's question. The Planning Director said one of the functions of the Planning Commissioner is also trying to maintain and improve property values, and she thinks the vacancy rate may affect their property values, so they should become more flexible in terms of land uses. Vice-Chairman Sims said they have to be careful about being too discriminate due to the emotional aspect. He said he doesn't necessarily support telemarketing, as he gets the phone calls as much as everyone else, but he hangs up, and that is pretty easy to do. He said he is concerned about what is happening in their town with the vacancies. He said they have some nice structures, but they are being brought down by the structures that aren't so nice, and if putting warm bodies into an office space will help generate attraction of other business, he supports that. He said he doesn't want the wrong type of businesses in town, but this operation looks a little bit keyed in to the administrative/professional. He didn't really see a problem with this. Commissioner Munson stated (inaudible), and stated this is probably the worst area to move if you are going to try acid-reduce expense and start as a geographical location where a telephone is concerned. Vice-Chairman Sims stated they are probably getting a pretty good price to lease this space. The Planning Director said she talked to the City Attorney about (inaudible), and her professional opinion is that maybe it would be better to be flexible in some occasions when they don't have very negative impacts (inaudible). 16 Commissioner Wilson stated (inaudible). Commissioner Huss stated (inaudible), but asked if there was any other particular area in Grand Terrace that is better suited for (inaudible). The Planning Director stated (inaudible). Chairman Buchanan asked if they hold public hearings for Determinations of Use, to which the Planning Director responded in the negative. MOTION PCM-93-15 DU-93-01 Vice-Chairman Sims made a motion to approve DU-93-01. Commissioner Wilson seconded. Chairman Buchanan asked Commissioner Sims if his motion was to make the Determination of Use as recommended by staff with the hours condition as stated and the requirement of obtaining a City business license, period, and the deletion of the remainder of!Items 2 and 3. Vice-Chairman Sims and Commissioner Wilson concurred. MOTION VOTE PCM-93-15 Motion carries. 5-1-1-0. Commissioner Munson voted no. Commissioner Hargrave absent. Commissioner Van Gelder asked if or who the Chamber of Commerce, for instance (inaudible). The Planning Director stated that the Chamber (inaudible) grievance committee to bring in problems and solutions and the City Manager has accepted to do so and has asked the Planning Department to participate (inaudible). Chairman Buchanan said they are looking at sometime in late March. Commissioner Van Gelder said; it would be nice if they would be a little aggressive in that area. �.. 17 ITEM #4 CITY OF GRAND TERRACE CONGESTION MANAGEMENT PLAN - RESOLUTION FOR CITY ADOPTION OF LAND USE/TRANSPORTATION ANALYSIS PROGRAM The Planning Director presented the staff report. She said that Commissioner Wilson asked how much development they have to go, so they considered the blocks and (inaudible), and then they calculate the area of the vacant lots and the non-conforming land, and to fit into this non-conforming land, they look at both the structure and use as non-conforming. She said if the use is conforming and the structure was not, that use is likely to stay there, like the Edison Company and the power generators, as some of those structures are non-conforming, however the use is there and the site is completely developed. She said through the analysis, they found out by doing it this way, there were only four reports to do this using the CMP thresholds, which are very high. Chairman Buchanan asked if this was based on the assumption that one of those blocks developed as a single project. He said the question he has on the thresholds is whether or not the thresholds are determined on a per- project basis, to which the Planning Director responded in the affirmative. He asked, what if they set a 50 DU threshold and a developer comes in and says he is going to take a parcel of land and put 49 units on it, then there would be no TIA. He said they didn't make these blocks up by single ownership. The Planning Director said a lot of the industrial people that call them ask for 100 to 150 acres, so this is an assumption in case the development improves by consolidation of lots, as this is what they recommend on Barton Road. She said if they assume that development will improve by lot consolidation and they are going to reach some thresholds and that they feel according to the CMP thresholds, they will -have only four reports, and actually, after they corrected the maps, just two reports. Chairman Buchanan said in reality, they have no reports if somebody only develops part of that land as one project and somebody else develops the other part. He said he just wanted to clarify, in his own mind whether they were talking about number of units or retail space within a particular area or within a particular project. The Planning Director said with the first thirty they did, it was just by blocks. She said there is something she can conclude from this, too, because even by consolidating, they can only trigger two reports, and if they don't consolidate, they don't trigger any. She said very similarly, on the evaluation of the 18 -' housing projects, they find out that if they consider 250 DU on the original table they were going to trigger one report, The Highlands Apartments, but this was a mistake, as they used the table, and they would use the wrong base map (inaudible) to change it, and when they fix the table, they don't have any reports if they use CMP thresholds. Commissioner Sims said she is essentially saying is that they have the proverbial gun to their heads, and if they don't conform and approve this,they don't get their money. He said he appreciates this extensive study, and there probably isn't really a project in this City that could be developed and would probably even require a TIA, and he thinks the reality is that the smaller projects will probably be coming!in, so it will be less than the thresholds that are really in here, so in this case, it becomes a relatively mute issue, and he thinks the approval of the resolution is academic. He said if they don't approve it, they won't reap the benefits of the entire program that SANBAG is trying to put together to make!the standards (inaudible). He said in their business, it helps them but it also creates another level of bureaucracy that everybody has to deal with, but they are willing to help as a conglomerate of the cities working together, which is actually quite unique, and he thinks it is a very good idea. He said it is just one of those rules that everyone will have to follow to make sure they obtain the goals that SANBAG and AQMD have been trying to set for Southern California. The Planning Director said she thought (inaudible) relating to the CMP thresholds vs. some others (inaudible). Commissioner Sims said he thinks the information she brought forth shows there is a wide range of cities that have different thresholds for their specific communities. He,said Fontana is a moving target, and they are trying to do their best to bring their city back together again, and therefore, their thresholds are very low, but they have let a lot of projects go through that are creating a lot of problems for ;them now, and this is why they are very sensitive. He said we don't have! that kind of problem, and he feels that the Planning Commission has done' a very good job looking at all of these projects, and staffs evaluation justifies it even further. -1 Ie said with the amount of property that is left to; develop, the aspect of somebody coming in and wanting to take 150 acres and consolidate it and create mega-projects (inaudible), it could happen. He said then they would exceed the thresholds and therefore it kicks into action the need for a TIA. He said it looks pretty convincing that, even though they haven't really decided what the thresholds they will set, it is going to be something quite (inaudible) no matter what they do. The Planning Director completed her staff report. 19 Chairman Buchanan asked if the Planning Director could give an example of what units in the City would be typical for a 20,000 sq. ft. use. ' The Planning Director said GTI Market is about 14,000 sq. ft. Chairman Buchanan asked about Stan Curatolo's project. The Associate Planner said it is only about 6,700 sq. ft. Chairman Buchanan asked about the Towne & Country Center. The Associate Planner said it is probably about 18,000, because they added about 8,000 to 10,000. The Planning Director said it is not a very big development, but it is a good size to create those trips that make an impact, and if they consider that the impact is an additional 50 two-way trips on the peak hour on an intersection, they have that potential. Chairman Buchanan asked if that was dirt right now and someone was coming in to propose building the Towne & Country Center, does the Planning Director think it should require a Traffic Impact Analysis. The Planning Director said she thinks it should, because they don't have so much development coming, and they would need to participate in- the mitigation measures, so (inaudible) to share the cost, otherwise the City is going to pay some costs. She said maybe it is not very fair from a developer's perspective, but they do not have much more coming in, and they need to be able to mitigate for some of the impacts. She said another way to mitigate for the impacts is to try the fee. She said this is part of her proposal, to have these thresholds, but then anybody below.these thresholds will be charged a fee per trip added to the system, so they would not have a cumulative impact that is not covered. She said when they reach that level, they would need to have a TI?.Report. She said maybe 20,000 is too low. Chairman Buchanan said he does not see it as unreasonable for a project that size in a City this small to ask them to demonstrate to us from an engineering standpoint what the impact on traffic is going to be. The Planning Director said the intersections at Mt. Vemon/Barton Road and at the freeway both have the afternoon peak hour at E already, so any further development maybe go into deficiency.plans on Barton Road. She somebody will need to pay for those impacts, because if they don't charge the developers, then the City will need to pay when the final year report comes. 20 Chairman Buchanan said they need to have a way of passing that on to Colton and Loma Linda. The Planning Director said with regard to residential, Colton has 100 units and Fontana has 50. She said thel,transportation manager in Fontana told her that,with 50 units, if you distribute the traffic in several intersections, then 50 units do not create an impact. Chairman Buchanan said this would be the case in Fontana as it is more grid- like with multiple freeway accesses. The Planning Director said her idea is to recommend 50, but the City Engineer prefers 75. She said in'terms of numbers, with 50, they would have 7 reports triggered on the life of ithe town until build-out, and if they put 75, they will have 3. She said she believes the CMP originally had a formula for calculating phasing developments, but they do not have it in the final draft. She said if they are going to have a phasing development, they will need to evaluate the total picture up front so they can evaluate the impacts of the total. She said her proposal to ;them is $20/feet for commercial, $150 for industrial and 50 units for residential. She said they don't necessarily have to have these resolved today; they 'don't even have to have them"resolved to approve the resolution, as it can be approved with a condition to staff that the thresholds be developed and come back to the commission or, the way she would recommend, is to give staff some parameters which they could use and finalize this proposal and take it to the City Council (inaudible). She said she could bring it back to the next meeting for information purposes only,because by then the report would need to be complete for the City Council, so if the commission has any input, it would be a recommendation just on a workshop basis:. She said March 1, 1993 is the deadline, and it will go to the City Council on February 25, and the Planning Commission has one more meeting before that, however, her report 'is due earlier. Commissioner Munson said it seems all they are doing tonight is restating what was said at the last meeting, and if they have it again next meeting, all they are going to do is restate what they've already heard twice. He said what little he understands of what he has heard tonight is that he thinks staff has the ability to set the parameters. He said his concern is what is going to happen to the City of Grand Terrace and Barton Road when they start closing off that freeway interchange at the bottom of the hill, as trucks are already coming up Barton Road and using our streets as a shortcut, and when they close that offramp, he wondered'if they would have any recourse. The Planning Director said they did review circulation on this for the City of Colton, and they did have a traffic route through Barton Road, so staff did 21 send them comments saying they can not accept that and they should change it and no feedback has been received yet, so hopefully they didn't approve the Environmental Impact Report without sending staff the comments as they did request them. She said if they see something like this happening in relation to a project, staff is going to have the right to request them to make a TIA Report, and they can tell them they feel there are impacts on the City from that particular project and they need to do a TIA Report, and if they don't do it, they can always ask SCAG and SANBAG to tell staff where the trips are originating, and they can actually prove that. She said on the final yearly report, they would send the bills to the different cities. Chairman Buchanan said he didn't feel there was any question that they are all interested in getting the resolution adopted and moved forward. He said if he could be so presumptuous as to speak on behalf of the other commissioners, he thinks what they are saying is they all want the criteria to be realistic for the City of Grand Terrace, not a generic criteria, and he thinks staff has done an outstanding job in making this kind of analysis. He said he doesn't think it is a good idea to look at it in terms of them having a certain number of reports that they can tolerate, and therefore, let's set the standards ._ within those parameters. He felt a better way of looking at it is, in the City of Grand Terrace, what level of each type of development is going to really have an impact on traffic and circulation? He said 50 houses in Grand Terrace are going to have a lot greater impact in his mind that 50 houses in a,grid community with freeways on both sides, an Ontario situation, for example, because they are tucked up in a little niche against the side of the hill and there is limited freeway access. He said people tend to go in one direction in and one direction out and 50 houses don't use 3 or 4 different ingress and egress routes -they use one,with maybe a little trickle-off in some other directions. He said each of these categories has to be looked at with the question in mind, what does Grand Terrace look like, where is this development going to take place, and at what point does it really have an impact? He said he really doesn't feel qualified to say what that number is, and the sense he is getting from the other commissioners is that they appreciate all the information staff has given them, and they can use it to reach certain conclusions, but he thinks they are all being a little unrealistic except for Commissioner Sims who is probably the most qualified to make this sort of analysis. He said in terms of parameters, the general guideline is they have to look at Grand Terrace, not a generic number; they have to look at the unique circumstances of all of the little blocks and keep in mind and take the worst-case scenario, since they are establishing thresholds, and take the worst proximity of an industrial block and look at how much development it can take without meeting the threshold that staff professionally knows makes a traffic impact, and this is where those parameters ought to be set. 22 The Planning Director said she agrees with him 100%, but she still wants to I protect the numbering system. She said with regard to developers, everybody is going to be setting thresholds, and she (inaudible) positive for Grand Terrace to become the community in this area that has the lower thresholds just by number. She said when she looks at how many reports, she also thinks in terms of staff, because righti now, the City Engineer's contract doesn't involve TIA Reports. She said she also thinks in terms of staff time and cost for the City, not just for the developers, and the burden in terms of cost and amount of reports. Chairman Buchanan said he doesn't think any of them want the thresholds set so low that it discourages development, and obviously if a TIA is going to cost somebody $20,000 to prepare, it has got to be related to a project where $20,000 is a drop in the bucket. . The Planning Director said this is the type of information that maybe somebody could give her, and she knows, for example, that with regard to 100 units, not to concentrate the traffic on only one road, chances are they would be affecting two intersections at least, and two intersections, according to the range of costs she has received, 'each intersection analysis costs from $1,000 to-$1,500 per intersection, so a TIA Report for a 100-unit project may cost $3,000 to $5,000. She asked if this cost would be significant. M Chairman Buchanan said if there is a $10,000 expense for a 100-unit project, they are looking at adding $100;per unit cost. He asked if they can justify adding $100 per unit in cost to make sure people can comfortably get in and out of their homes and don't sit!too long at intersections. Vice-Chairman Sims said there are so many other fees that go far beyond that cost that developers have to pay din the system, and BIA looks at every single fee as a burden, and he thinks they can't forget the ultimate goal of this whole program, which is to help the whole. The Planning Director said for the housing, she thinks the cost is insignificant, but what about for the 20,000 sq. ft. retail space? Chairman Buchanan said in good times, it is almost irrelevant, and in bad times, when people are trying to do things as cheaply as possible, it is just an item they can come and gripe about. Vice-Chairman Sims said they will see a lot of innovative traffic engineering going on. ' 23, Chairman Buchanan said he is not a believer in putting anymore bureaucratic burden on any kind of development project than is justifiable, and there is no reason to set the standards so low that people are doing Traffic Impact ` Analyses for no good reason. He said it should only happen if we can confidently say it has an impact on traffic to the extent that staff needs a professional analysis of the impact and the mitigation for that. He said that should be the criteria. The Planning Director said the discussion with the Planning Commission helps to reason. She said she feels pretty comfortable but not completely comfortable with the numbers after talking to the City Engineer, and she feels if they take some existing commercial projects instead of looking at the future, this will give them some parameters in scale. Commissioner Huss said with regard to the 50 and 75 residential units, she said she thinks staff's guess was pretty far off, as she decided to count the squares. She said T.J. Austyn has 174 total, and she didn't think that the first three phases, which are the blocks that she lives in, really had much impact, and there are 72 there, so she would be more tempted to go with the 75. She said when you get into the fourth phase on up, she thinks it probably does affect more. She said as far as the levels, she had a little picture that shows exactly what each Level A through F was, (inaudible), even though she knows it is going to _be Level E. She said as far as the gross square footage (inaudible),Level E is already what the standard would be for the traffic flow, so that is no big deal. She said the gross square footage is where she has the - trouble. The Planning Director said apparently the industrial produces a very little amount of trips per 1,000 sq. ft., so that is why the City Engineer is recommending 150,000 sq. ft. as he feels that unless they have at least 150,000 sq. ft. of industrial, they wouldn't have an impact of an intersection, so it would be less than 50 trips on a peak hour intersection or a little less. She said what she is thinking to do now is to take some examples of existing buildings, and if they don't have ovf in Grand Terrace, they will use it from another City of 100 or 150, and just observe how the project behaves and have an idea of scale of existing projects and their impacts and match that against the City Engineer's recommendations. Chairman Buchanan said they can spend a lot of time talking about an intriguing but foreign subject to them. He suggested adopting the resolution as far as the City criteria goes, and he recommended that staff prepare for City Council some existing use comparisons like she suggested to give them some idea of scale. He said this was helpful to look forward, but they need something to use as a starting point - what are they talking about when they 24 } talk about 20,000 or 150,000? ; He said if staff's analysis and the City Engineer's analysis are different on what those thresholds should be based on the criteria that he thinks they all agree on,which is,what does it mean to the City of Grand Terrace, then he thinks the way it should be presented to City Council is, here is the resolution, the Planning Commission recommends its adoption, the Planning Commission has directed staff to prepare some examples for scale purposes and has identified some differences in threshold levels recommended by various components of staff, here are what those various recommendations are and here are some examples, and City Council needs to pick some number, not that they are any more qualified to pick out that number than the commission is. Vice-Chairman Sims said it comes from staff, as staff is the best source since they have done all of this excellent data, which is the best source for setting the thresholds, as the thresholds can change. He said he appreciates staffs analysis, but it doesn't really get down.to the point that what they need to do is pass the resolution so that they (inaudible) aspects, because if they lose that, none of this threshold information means anything. Chairman Buchanan said if there is a difference in opinion by staff, City Engineer vs. Planning Director, it is ultimately the City Council that needs to do that, and since the City Engineer is not here tonight to explain his rationale to them, and he will be to the City Council, it makes a lot more sense for the ultimate decision to be made there, as the commission is relying on staff. MOTION PCM-93-16 CMP Commissioner Wilson made a motion to approve the adoption recommendation of the Congestion Management Plan to City Council. Commissioner Sims seconded. MOTION VOTE PCM-93-16 Motion carries. 6-0-1-0. Commissioner Hargrave absent. PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:45 P.M. 25 i NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING TO BE HELD ON FEBRUARY 18, 1993. Respectfully submitted, Approved by, Ntrizia Materassi Dan Buchanan Planning Director Chairman, Planning Commission 03-01-93:ma c:\wp51\planning\minutes\02-04-93.m 26