11/04/1993GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 4, 1993
The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was called to order at the
Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton Road, Grand Terrace, California on November
4, 1993 at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman Dan Buchanan.
PRESENT: Dan Buchanan, Chairman
Jim Sims, Vice -Chairman
Matthew Addington, Commissioner
Moire Huss, Commissioner
Ray Munson, Commissioner
Fran Van Gelder, Commissioner
Doug Wilson, Commissioner
Patrizia Materassi, Community Development Director
Maria C. Muett, Associate Planner
Larry Mainez, Planning Technician
Maggie Alford, Planning Secretary
ABSENT: None.
PLEDGE: Moire Huss, Commissioner
CONVENED PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION AT 6:35 P.M.
The Community Development Director said the reason the last meeting was
canceled was to allow the Chamber more time to review the Sign Ordinance
and the proposals staff had made and the discussion item would be held
today. She said she talked to the City Attorney briefly to find out the
difference in terms of public hearings and public meetings. She said the
public hearing focuses on the people's input, but with a public meeting, the
Commission and staff can set the rules. She said staff is proposing to have a
discussion between the Planning Commission, the Chamber representatives
and staff on the prohibited section of the Sign Ordinance. She said staff
proposes that public input can be given, but not as a part of the discussion,
since there will be a public hearing at the next meeting.
Commissioner Huss commented on the APA dinner she attended on
"Gridlock at Public Hearings" along with Planning Commissioners from other
c
cities, stating that it seems our City runs smoothly compared to others. O
Chairman Buchanan stated that he had the opportunity to attend a workshop
for "Planning for More Livable Communities", which had a distinct vehicle
emission and trip reduction orientation but was really much broader. He said
the general theme was, as a result of expansion of suburban communities,
especially in Southern California following World War II and the construction
of huge networks of heavily subsidized freeway systems, Southern California
became oriented to single family residences on fairly large lots and a heavy
reliance on the automobile on a mode of transportation. He said whatever
type of mass transportation existed in Los Angeles before World War H was
dismantled to make room for freeways to accommodate vehicle traffic, and
for a while this worked fairly well, until people realized we were creating a
poisoned atmosphere that wouldn't allow people to continue to live if we
didn't reduce smog and vehicle emissions, and the people were spending an
enormous amount of time in heavily congested traffic in their commute from
the suburbs to downtown areas. He said there were interesting statistics
presented, for example, somebody who lives in this area and works in Orange
County or East Los Angeles, in an 18 year span, by the time someone's kids
are bom and reach 18 years of age, they will have lost two years of parenting
time sitting on the freeway. He said solutions are difficult, but the goal a lot
of planning professionals are looking for right now is to find a way to
accommodate the greatly increasing population of Southern California while
reducing the reliance on the automobile for transportation, allowing people
to use public transportation systems, which work in places like New York City,
where 45% of the people that are going to work use public transportation, as
compared to Southern California, where it is 3 to 4%. He said Washington
D.C. is over 50%. He wondered if there was any coincidence that the
community that has the largest percentage of people using public
transportation also has the highest crime rate in the country. He said one big
factor is public safety; you expect people to utilize public transportation once
they feel safe in doing so. He said the concepts a lot of people are
expounding now involve increasing housing densities to a significant extent
and getting away from the traditional type of zoning, exclusionary zoning, and
the result is people have to get into their cars to go from home to work. He
said for a pedestrian -oriented community to work, there has to be 1/4 to 1/2
mile radius between where they want to go and where they are, or they are
going to drive. He stated that there were some interesting basic principles
brought out -- that some planners believe existing patterns of urban and
suburban development seriously impair our quality of life. He said the
symptoms are congestion and air pollution resulting from our increased
dependence on automobiles, the loss of precious open space, the need for
costly improvements to roads and public services, the inequitable distribution
of economic resources and the loss of the sense of community. He said
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several different planning principles were defined and recommended to be
utilized to correct some of these problems. He said at the beginning of all of
this, he was thinking, they talk about loss of precious open space, asking what
most people want -- open space to look at, like the hills, or open space like
a backyard. He said most of us live in single family dwellings on fairly large
lots, and imagines most of us chose to live like this. He said he likes the fact
he has a backyard and he likes having some personal open space rather than
going out to a park just to be outdoors. He said on the other hand, he can
see how that results in a loss of sense of community. He said one of the
speakers he enjoyed listening to showed a slide representing the classic picture
of the American Dream, and it showed a two-story wood house with a white
picket fence with mature trees along the sidewalk and blue skies, and
everybody agreed this was the American Dream. He said he then showed
another slide, which was a typical tract home from anywhere in Southern
California, stating that this is what we are building and calling the American
Dream. He said he realized for the first time that the most predominant
feature of any house being built these days is the garage. He said when we
get home from work, we push the button, the garage door goes up, we drive
in, we push the button, it closes and we are isolated. He said homes don't
have front porches -- nobody sits out on the porch and watches the kids play,
they do it in the backyard by themselves. He said this community is fortunate
enough to have active youth leagues, and people are surprised to meet their
neighbors and actually realize that they are neighbors while standing at the
edge of their kids' soccer field.
Chairman Buchanan said as the day went on, he got more of a sense of
appreciation for some of the points they were trying to raise -- not an
abandonment of the American Dream, but realizing what it really is and
trying to return to that -- narrow, tree -lined streets with vehicles and garages
relegated to the back, so the people in the community come forward towards
the street and build front porches so people can sit out there. He said safe
streets are streets that are watched; streets lined by garage doors are unsafe
streets. He said the notion of not trying to abandon the American Dream but
trying to realize what it nszd to be was very interesting. He said the speaker
had some slides of wonderful places around the world and of current office
developments, which showed the distinction is that now, we occupy space with
buildings -- then, space was created by the buildings, for example, building a
horseshoe shaped buildings to create a plaza or a pavilion with a public area
in the center. He said today there is a building in the center of a lot
surrounded by parking.
Chairman Buchanan said taking for granted that we must reduce our reliance
on the automobile, he asked how to go about doing that, and the notion is
you can put together some very nice communities that mix retail and office
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and residential, and you can increase densities and create larger
concentrations of people that reduce the expenses of infrastructure and make
public transportation a feasible item. He said they were shown illustrations
of public transportation that missed the mark, where they set up a
transportation station so far away from anyplace anybody needed to go that
it was pointless, as well as some things that worked very well, where you
stepped off of a commuter train right into the downtown. He said he is still
reading through interesting material, and he is not sure he agrees with
everything as it must be recognized that there is a significant number of
people that do not want to live in a brownstone or condensed, high density
living situation, as a lot of people want space around them. He said a lot of
people have left Southern California to go to Oregon or Idaho or Colorado
and buy four or five acres and put a house right in the middle of it. He
stated that there are communities back East where the automobile has never
taken control of society like it has here. He said one of the things they have
talked about as part of the Traffic Management Plan is, in a community like
this, how do you eliminate vehicle trips, and the answer is you can't. He said
in this type of setting, where people live spread out as compared to Baltimore
or New York City, you can't support public transportation -- you can't get
people close enough to a transportation nexus where they can walk out of
there home in the morning and walk down to the bus or train to go to work
as it is not convenient or practical.
Chairman Buchanan said the information is very interesting and will pass it
on when he is done looking at it. He said we will be facing this everyday,
when regional agencies and the State and the Federal government start
imposing on us requirements to reduce vehicle emissions and vehicle trips and
concentrate on the old way of doing things.
Commissioner Van Gelder said in Chicago and New York, for example,
public transportation is utilized for two reasons: when the population grew
so drastically, there wasn't any more land, so they had to put their houses
close together and go up -- there may not have been a choice, but they did it,
but they use public transportation because it i. available, and we do not have
that choice yet. She said rather than taking people's large lots away from
them, why not include the MetroRail and the other forms of rapid transit, so
that if people want to live in that kind of setting, they can. She said anytime
there is high density housing, there is a high crime rate.
Chairman Buchanan said a big problem is overcoming the problems of crime
and safety, which is one of the biggest impediments to high density
arrangements. He said they had counter -arguments that if you start mixing
residential and commercial uses, the concentration of people drives out the
crime, as the streets are not safe for criminals as people are there during the
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day in the businesses and people there at night in their homes.
ADJOURNED PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION AT 7:05 P.M.
CONVENED PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING AT 7:05 P.M.
PUBLIC PARTICIPATION:
Commissioner Addington stated that with regard to Commissioner Van
Gelder's concern that there might be a conflict of interest with him serving on
the Planning Commission and on the Sign Ordinance Review Committee for
the Chamber of Commerce, he has not sat on any of those committees as he
was out of town working, and he has talked to John Harper, the City
Attorney, and he has told him there is absolutely no conflict of interest at all
in this matter.
ITEM #1
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES - OCTOBER 7, 1993
Commissioner Huss stated that on page 3 at the top, instead of
"Commissioner Wright" it should read "Commissioner Wilson".
MOTION
PCM-93-63
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES - OCTOBER 7, 1993
MOTION
VOTE
PCM-93-63
Commissioner Addington made a motion to approve the October 7, 1993
minutes. Commissioner Huss seconded.
Motion carries. 6-0-0-1. Vice -Chairman Sims abstained.
ITEM #4
Z-93-03/BRSPA-93-02/E-93-13
ZONING AMENDMENTS
CITY OF GRAND TERRACE
CITYWIDE
5
Chairman Buchanan said staff was requesting a continuance of this item to
November 18, 1993. He asked if there was anyone in the audience for this
particular item.
MOTION
PCM-93-64
Z-93-03/BRSPA-93-02/E-93-13
MOTION
VOTE
PCM-93-64
Commissioner Van Gelder made a motion to continue Z-93-03/BRSPA-93-
02/E-93-13. Vice -Chairman Sims seconded.
Motion carries. 7-0-0-0.
ITEM 2
DU-93-04
FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF GRAND TERRACE
PASTOR ROGER GREENWALT
12354 S. MT. VERNON
G.T.
AN APPLICATION FOR DETERMINATION OF USE REGARDING A YOUTH CENTER
AFFILIATED WITH THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF GRAND TERRACE
The Associate Planner presented the staff report.
ROGER GREENWALT, PASTOR
12354 S. MT. VERNON
G.T.
MOTION
PCM-93-65
DU-93-04
Pastor Greenwalt answered questions of the commission describing the
proposed use.
Vice -Chairman Sims made a motion to approve DU-934 4. Commissioner
Van Gelder seconded.
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MOTION
VOTE
PCM-93-65
Motion carries. 7-0-0-0.
ITEM #3
Z-93-02/BRSPA-93-01/E-93-12
CITY OF GRAND TERRACE
REVISIONS TO THE PROHIBITED SIGN SECTION OF THE SIGN ORDINANCE,
CHAPTER 18, SECTION 18.80.160 AND RELATED POLICIES IN CONNECTION WITH
THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
Chairman Buchanan stated this item was only for discussion and information
purposes, not for any action. He said he will give staff the opportunity to
make a presentation, and then they will open the item up for discussion
purposes, but not for public testimony purposes. He said since it has not been
noticed as a public hearing, this will be in the nature of a workshop session.
He asked speakers to come up to the microphone so they can be on the
record and to state name and address.
The Community Development Director presented the introduction and basic
assumptions of the staff report, including the goal of creating a downtown,
pedestrian -oriented, village -scale image for Grand Terrace. She said she
would then ask the Commission and the Chamber if there are any issues, then
she would read the portion of the staff proposal on that particular issue. She
said if the Commission has questions on specific items, she can go through
and read the Chamber's request and staff recommendation and some of the
proposed ordinance amendments.
Chairman Buchanan said he thinks they all have had an opportunity to read
through this, so he isn't sure they would gain much be re -reading it, although
there might be some points they could benefit from.
Commissioner Van Gelder suggested going through them one at a time, and
if nobody has any questions, they can go on to the next one.
Chairman Buchanan agreed. He stated that copies of the report are available
for the public.
The Community Development Director said the intent is to get input from the
Chamber and staff and take something to the City Council that the Planning
Commission is comfortable with, because it is the Planning Commission's role
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to evaluate proposals to amend the Zoning Code.
Chairman Buchanan said procedurally they are going to talk about this in a
fairly informal sense, and at the next meeting, it will be before the
Commission for formal action and they will be passing on a recommendation
of some kind to the City Council, who will ultimately act on any code
amendment.
The Community Development Director said they had the Chamber's approval
when staff presented it to them, and there were some members that differed
from the group idea, and maybe they want to bring it up today, and perhaps
there are some merchants that have their own ideas, but basically, the
Chamber has accepted so far that staff knows of, and if the Planning
Commission accepts, that is what they will take to the City Council.
Chairman Buchanan said there is a general consensus that what staff has put
together is workable from staffs perspective as well as the representatives of
the Chamber that staff has been dealing with. He said this is the
Commission's opportunity to thrust through this outside of the formal hearing
process and to allow other people to put in their input.
Vice -Chairman Sims said they should be concentrating on those areas there
is disagreement on.
Chairman Buchanan said on each item, he will ask if anyone on the
Commission has a problem or additional input and if anyone in the audience
feels that particular item needs further amplification or disagrees with any of
the comments that the Community Development Director has already made.
Chairman Buchanan said the first item has to do with fast track review and
approval procedure for applicants for signs with a recommended turn around
time of no more than five working days. There were no comments from the
Commission or the audience.
Chairman Buchanan said 2A pertains to Section 18.80.030, definition of roof
signs, to change "constructed or placed upon' to read "constructed or placed
above". There were no comments from the Commission or the audience.
Chairman Buchanan said 2B pertains to Section 18.80.160, clarify and define
animated signs.
Commissioner Wilson said the clarification could expand a little bit. He said
he thinks the purpose of this is to not create a traffic problem, so it would
seem that the definition should include, "so as not to divert the attention of
drivers".
Vice -Chairman Sims asked if (inaudible) any parameters attached to this
definition or are they already in place.
The Community Development Director said right now, they don't, they only
have a prohibition, but they don't have any specifics to explain why, just that
any signs that have lighting and depict an action or move around are not
permitted. She said one of the reasons is the traffic. She said in the City
ordinance, there are two intents: traffic and aesthetics. She said they could
add this wording to the text.
Chairman Buchanan said he understands that the current ordinance just
prohibits animated signs; it doesn't specify particulars about them, it just says
they are prohibited and what this is intended to do is make clear exactly what
is prohibited. The audience had no comments.
Chairman Buchanan said 2C pertains to Section 18.80.160, Vehicle Signs,
clarify definition "attached to" under Section 18.80.030.
Commissioner Van Gelder said the italicized portion is very clear and very
well done.
LORETTA BENSON
21892 GRAND TERRACE ROAD
G.T.
Ms. Benson said she has been sitting up there "chomping at the bit" because
when listening to them talk about a pedestrian -oriented, village atmosphere.
She said she and her husband walk at night, and it is very dark down Barton
Road. She said they need street lights, and if they really want this kind of a
thing, they need to do something about the town, because that isn't what they
have -- they don't have people who walk in the daytime or in the evening.
She said she is here because of the vehicle signs, and she understands they
have caused a problem by putting up their vehicle sign, and she understands
not even maybe wanting a vehicle sign in town. She asked what a person
should do when they put a business in and it is their life savings and they are
in a complex where nobody can see you. She said they went into the donut
shop to have breakfast with the owner, and the owner said she came down
Saturday to eat at Sub Depot and couldn't find it. She said if a person can't
find your business that knows you're there, what do you do about the people
who don't know you're there? She said they spent money on advertising in
the Chamber paper and everywhere, and still, people don't know they are
there, and that is the reason they put up a vehicle sign. She said there have
E
been times they don't have there truck there, and it is $100 to 200 in sales
when that truck isn't there. She said she doesn't mind taking the sign down
if the City gives her some other way to attract people on the street. She said
they have to survive on the street, because there are approximately 15 eating
places in town, and there are not enough people in this town to support all
of them, yet the City continues to allow eating places to go in, so people like
them take their sign down, then they can't pay their rent, then the landlord
can't keep the place up, and then you have empty places and then they all go,
and she knows that the City has a problem, but they have real estate signs up
that have been up for a year and a half since she has lived in this town. She
asked what the difference is between a real estate sign and them advertising
their business of a year or year and a half. She stated that the City doesn't
know what to do nor do they know, and she asked what they should do when
they end up in a complex that the City has approved that can't be seen from
the street. She said if the City doesn't allow vehicle signs, then somebody
needs to come up with a better idea than just a monument sign, because
nobody can see their monument sign, and they are on it. She stated she
thinks that right now it is fine to say they can't have their vehicle signs and
they can't do a lot of these things, but the City needs to find a way for
businesses to survive because there is over a 50% vacancy rate in this town.
She said the City is not attracting businesses, it is chasing them out. She
stated she doesn't know what they are going to do if the City makes them take
their vehicle sign down. She said they put up a banner, and she tried to ask
the Community Development Director if she could put up a banner that
wasn't on the front of the building as nobody would see it there. She said
they put one up but the wind blew it down, and this was all professionally
done, and it did help. She said they are happy to do anything that would
comply with anything the City wants them to do as long as they can keep their
business going, but they are at a loss about what to do, and she is asking the
City to help them -- if they take the vehicle sign, give them something else to
attract people on the street because they can't just depend on the town.
The Community Development Director asked the Chairman if she should
read the City's response to the Chamber on this issue.
Chairman Buchanan said he didn't feel it was necessary since everybody has
a copy of the packet.
The Community Development Director said staff is proposing vehicle signs.
Chairman Buchanan said staff is supporting them with some time restrictions.
The Community Development Director agreed, stating that it might be good
to read the section, stating that signs should be professionally painted, not
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attached to the trucks.
Vice -Chairman Sims stated (inaudible).
The Community Development Director said the signs are being proposed to
be allowed from now on, as they were not before, and it is proposed they be
allowed on a temporary basis for the first year of the business.
Chairman Buchanan said the big distinction would be if you had a van that
had your business name painted on the side of it, this would be permitted,
whereas mounting a sign would still be prohibited under this because it is
talking about a sign actually mounted on the vehicle using the vehicle as a
base for a sign as opposed to the vehicle simply being the sign itself.
The Community Development Director said it could be like a delivery vehicle
or a vehicle that has the name of the business painted on the body.
Vice -Chairman Sims said the applicant is bringing up a good argument, but
the City didn't pick where she decided to start a business. He said, however,
that this proposal might be able to help her.
Inaudible conversation.
The Community Development Director asked if she could read this portion
of the report.
Commissioner Munson said everyone understands it.
Chairman Buchanan said what would be more helpful that simply reading
what is already here is adding to it by explaining more about her rationale or
some examples or something that is not already contained in here.
The Community Development Director said the proposal here is to continue
prohibiting vehicles that are considered structures for the signs, where the sign
would be attached to the vehicle. She said if there is a van, such as Mr. T.V.
Video or Domino's, the van is a delivery vehicle, the City can eventually issue
permits for that vehicle, and it can stay in the public right-of-way. She said
these are all different things than the City has right now, however, the vehicle
needs to be painted, not have signs attached to it, so it would not be a
structure on the street or in the parking lot, and it would follow the Vehicle
Code. She said staff is proposing this to be temporarily permitted similar to
banners, like 45 days out of a 90 day period, not more than 120 days per year.
She said it would be a temporary thing that would be on and off for the first
year of the business. She also proposed that the City wants to contact a sign
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company to give staff a list of techniques for signs that can be painted on
vehicles, and establish some design guidelines that would make it easier for
people.
Commissioner Munson said he assumes they are talking about the little truck
with the sign on top just past Canal. He said they can't afford to go out and
buy a van today, but maybe if they bought themselves a shell and attached it
to the truck, and then they professionally painted that shell, which gives them
more space with which to display merchandise. He asked if this would pass
for a professionally painted vehicle.
The Community Development Director said probably, that this is the direction
staff is going, and this is why she wants to develop the guidelines with a sign
company so they would have very clear standards.
Inaudible conversation.
Ms. Benson asked if the banner she put up was illegal and if it was on the
public right-of-way.
The Community Development Director said it was illegal because it didn't
have a permit.
Inaudible conversation.
The Community Development Director said currently, no, because it is not
attached to the building, however, the ordinance right now gives staff some
discretionary power, and if she would come to the City and apply for the
banner, the Code gives a little bit of discretion to the Planning Director to
accept an alternative location, but they have never approved one out on the
grass area so far, so this would be the first time it would be approved, but that
it could be done, so this is the bottom line. She said staff approves banners
all the time.
Inaudible conversation.
JIM BENSON
21892 GRAND TERRACE ROAD
G.T.
Inaudible conversation.
0
12
X
Mr. Benson said he would much rather be in Orange County because when
you go there, you can find places as you can see their signs from the road.
He said signs were created so you can see them and find a place. He said
they have a number of places in that little strip mall, and of those businesses,
they lost one recently - True Value Hardware, which was an anchor for the
shop. He said he talked to the Cleaners, and told them now they can put
their sign on the monument, and they said they didn't want their sign on the
monument because nobody can see it. He said there are only three spots on
the monument, and if all the places were occupied, there are only three spots.
He said the Planning Director said they can add to the monument, which isn't
an economic thing, as the Cleaners isn't going to chip in nor is the center they
rent from and the market on the comer isn't because he doesn't need to, and
the card shop said no and stated that the City has never done anything for
him, although he said he sees a lot of business coming in to his shop, but
baseball cards are known throughout, so he doesn't need a lot of advertising.
He said there are two businesses fighting for people and they work together,
but the City doesn't seem to be working and they hear from customers who
come in everyday, for example, a guy came in today asking how they were
doing with their truck sign. He said he told the customer they are about to
lose it, and the customer said that was the only reason he walked in. He said
they have increased their business 30% just from that sign because people can
see it when they are driving. He said it is a professionally done sign, and even
the Pasta Italia owner said he would pay 'W" amount of dollars to have one
done like it. He said you have to be creative in these days of poor economics,
and they went out and counted how many vacant businesses there are in
Grand Terrace, and they counted 50% on Barton Road, not counting the 50%
he (Pasta Italia) has empty in his shopping center off of Barton Road, which
is even a worse location than theirs. He said they see countless vehicles going
up and down Barton Road, but they don't stop, and wondered how to get
those people in. He asked if you add another 10' to a monument sign that
can't be seen already, or if you paint a sign on the side of a vehicle that does
no good to the cars going up and down the street, or do you pay maybe
$12,000 for a van just to put a sign on it. He said that is not economically
feasible -- it is idiotic. He said there is something wrong if the City can't get
businesses to come in here, and the City should be trying to do something --
either they want business or they don't; take out all the businesses and put in
condos and residential, or if there is going to be a business section that runs
two blocks long, the City needs to do something to get these businesses going.
He suggested running banners across Barton Road, stating that this would be
creative. He said if he drives down to Hesperia down the main street he can
find any business he wants to because there are signs all over. He said this
City can not have a village atmosphere because the people are not out
walking around. He said there is a dead spot right at the end of JB's and
until you get across the driveway, there is no sidewalk -- it doesn't continue
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like it does once you get beyond their little shopping area, (inaudible) once
you get down to the last house just before you get down to the Senior Center,
there are no sidewalks, it is all dirt, and then you get down to the gas station
and there are tons of lights, tons of signs, sidewalk signs, all kinds of things.
He said when you get across the freeway, there's Demetri's big sign which is
nice, except you can only see it from one direction on the freeway, and that's
coming in from Riverside. He said there are all kinds of things that he sees
when he is jogging his five miles around Grand Terrace, and one is that it is
not a village atmosphere, he doesn't see people walking around with their
kids, he doesn't see businesses open other than liquor stores late at night. He
said the combination deli -market doesn't have a deli in it. He said there is
one right next to them with no food other than hamburgers and hot dogs, but
it is open late, and the E-Z Mart by Demetri's is open until 10:00 p.m. or
11:00 p.m., but there are no people out there walking -- they come in their
cars, they drive everywhere. He said he and his wife are usually the only ones
on the street, and he's probably the only one who has guts enough to run on
the street at night time and up and down Jap Hill. He said that 174 didn't
pass and 172 passed and now we are going to hold their breath for a year to
see if we can even use that 1/2 cent tax for what they are supposed to be
using it for, or is the government going to do like they normally do and send
it off in some other direction (inaudible) law enforcement, which the City
doesn't have enough law enforcement and has already had to cut 1/2 a patrol
car and 1/2 a detective. He said there are gang problems already in this
town, and this was one of the areas when he was on the Sheriff's Department
(inaudible).
Vice -Chairman Sims asked what this has to do with signs.
Mr. Benson said he was talking about the work between the City and the
businesses. He said they need to work together and he doesn't see that right
now; all he sees are these gigantic "For Lease" signs by people that own these
centers, and every one of the people he talks to in these businesses just about
have them up for sale. (Inaudible) when I was a kid growing up with my
mom, and s'.::! had two cafes over in Fontana (inaudible) through another
economic slump. He said when everything's good and (inaudible) you can
have all the rules you want. (Inaudible.)
WALT STANKOWITZ, OWNER
LA PASTA ITALIA
12210 MICHIGAN, #7
G.T.
14 O
Mr. Stankowitz said one of the differences is he is located in a light industrial
complex as opposed to commercial. He said they have a wholesale operation,
but they also have a small retail operation. He said they sell their fresh pasta
products to the general public at wholesale prices, and if they didn't do that,
they wouldn't be there to sell pasta products to anyone. He said the retail
business, at this point, is make or break for them, and if they didn't have
retail business, they wouldn't have a business at all, and they have been going
on four years. He stated they are not a new business, and they don't fall
under the rules of being able to have a sign or banner for their first year. He
said he is in his fourth year and is still struggling, as he is in a location that
isn't conducive, the frontage of their particular complex doesn't meet the
minimums of the regulations here, it's very narrow and it's deep, and he's
about half way down inside that complex, and the only thing that's out front
is a nice, pleasing sign that says, "Park Center". He said John was at his place
today, and he happened to get a telephone call from someone asking how to
get to his place, so he went through the directions, and the last thing he says
is to look for the Suzuki on the street with the "Fresh Pasta' sign, and when
that's not up there, people come in and say they have driving up and down
Michigan and haven't been able to find where they are located. He said they
advertise in the Press Enterprise and the Chamber newsletter, they do charity
things to get themselves on television, they've supported baseball teams so
they can get their name out in centerfield on a baseball diamond; they've
done everything they can do to get their name out there, but again, it's the
same thing, if people drive by and can't see the sign that says, "This is where
you should turn', and that's all the sign says, "Fresh Pasta' with an arrow, it
doesn't have the name of the business or anything, and then they have a sign
on top of the building that is approved. He said that is all they have -- that
little sign out on the street. He said he saw the sub shop's sign when they
first put it up and thinks it's very nice and would like to get one of those, and
about the time he talked to the owner was about the time the sub shop owner
was served with a notice that he can't do that anymore.
Mr. Stankowitz said they are in the same situation - they are barely making
it, and he has data if the City wants it. He stated he as probably 1,500 retail
customers who come in and buy products, as they are the only fresh pasta
company in the Inland Empire, so it is something kind of special that Grand
Terrace has, so they play on that calling it, "Grand Terrace's Best Kept
Secret". He said the business they get from walk-in is probably 15 to 20%, so
they must have something good because people come back, but to bring new
people in, they have to have something to show them where they are at. He
said they probably bring in 6 to 10 new customers per week, and of those 6
to 10, better than half of them have come in because of the sign. He said
percent of total retail from that sign is probably 35% and they like the retail
business because their margins are higher. He said they deliver, so they don't
15
have the cost of jumping in a car or van and going off and delivering to a
restaurant or grocery store, so they make more money when people come in
and buy, and without the retail traffic, they wouldn't be here. He stated that
this has become a landmark, and it has been up for better than two years
now, and nobody has ever come in to him and told him he is not supposed to
have that sign. He said the mayor is a customer and has never said that sign
is illegal. He said maybe as a businessman he should have known better, but
he did not get sign regulations, but he has them now, but for two years, he
operated ignorantly and now he is suddenly being told what he has been doing
for two years has been wrong all along and he can't do it anymore.
Mr. Stankowitz said the present regulations that are out here and those
changes that are being proposed really aren't going to do him any good; going
out and buying another van to park on the street that's professionally painted
is not going to get the attention -- the little sign sits above the vehicle so it
stands out and it can be seen. He said they keep talking about a pedestrian -
oriented community and said he would ask each person to think when the last
time was they walked to the store in Grand Terrace. He said he doesn't do
it, and he'll let everyone answer it for themselves. He stated that his sign is
only displayed during the week from about 8:30 to 6:00; they don't have street
lights, so the sign doesn't do any good at night; people don't come down into
the complex at night and he doesn't blame them. He said they aren't open
on weekends, so it doesn't sit up there on weekends when everyone else is
home; they take it down every night and it is stored and they keep the vehicle
clean and the sign maintained as best as they can. He said it is not
professionally done, they made it themselves. He said he looks to the
Commission and staff to help them as they want to stay here as they like
Grand Terrace and the people and the people like them, and the last thing
they need to do is contemplate having to get out of here. He stated he is not
going to lose his business because the City will not let him advertise, and if
he has to, he'll go somewhere else.
The Community Development Director clarified a previous question regarding
the public right-of-way. There is a 12' of right-of-way on Barton Road,
basically where the sidewalk is, so once it is beyond the sidewalk, it is already
private property, so the banner in that area could be approved. She said it
would be a discretionary action as it is not listed in the Code right now, but
it could be approved. She said staff has not done this before, but it doesn't
say anything against it, and she has the authority to approve it if a permit is
applied for as long it is on the private property. She said only real estate
signs with the permission of the property owner are proposed to be allowed
in the public right-of-way.
16 O
Vice -Chairman Sims said he senses a communication problem, and he can
empathize with what is being said, but there have to be rules, otherwise things
just run amuck, and sometimes there are rules but things run amuck anyway
(inaudible) just do what they want, and it makes it tough for these people to
do their jobs; it makes it tough for this body to do its job and try to help,
which is what it is here for. He said passion runs very deep when it comes to
signs. He asked if the Chamber agreed upon this issue.
The Community Development Director said the group that represented the
Chamber agreed with staffs proposal.
Vice -Chairman Sims said there is some latitude if people come in and talk to
her (inaudible). He said he drives by the pasta sign on Michigan and in his
opinion, it is an ugly sign, and he hasn't gone to their store, but he doesn't
like pasta. He said he can appreciate the aspect of them needing the sign
because they are back in a whole back there, but the sign could be beautified
a little bit and still send the same message. He said his problem with the sign
is not that the sign is there; it is that it is ugly. He said he thinks there is
happy medium to be found, and the signs can be creative and somewhat
appealing to the general public and still do the same thing they want it to do.
He said a pink sign that glows in the dark may be a little bit too much, but
they can still do something that would be appealing and get them the business
they desire, and he doesn't think anybody is against that, but there has to be
a basic rule set to instill communication, not to try and bend the rules but to
work within the framework, because if it is taken too literally, the business
owners will never be happy and will say government is destroying their
business. (Inaudible) platform to negotiate (inaudible). He said you must
start from somewhere. He said he doesn't disagree, but they have to give a
little bit to establish the ground rules and work from there. He said he thinks
the pasta sign can be greatly improved.
Inaudible conversation.
The Community Develci *rent Director said according to this proposal,
businesses in the industrial area don't have the restriction of one year.
Regulations are not similar to Barton Road, since Barton Road is the City's
major commercial corridor. However, they do have the restriction that he can
not have the sign attached to the vehicle, but he could have the sign there
permanently, provided it is a sign painted on the body of the vehicle.
Vice -Chairman Sims stated (inaudible).
Inaudible conversation.
17
Ms. Benson said she thinks that is what they are trying to say, "Is there a
way?", because from what she understands from Patrizia is they can not have
a vehicle sign, only a painted vehicle, and what he (La Pasta Italia) is asking
and she is asking is, if they want a vehicle sign, if the City wants it white with
black lettering or if they want it circular, then that's fine, they can abide by
that, but they have been told, "No vehicle signs", and they are wondering what
they should do now.
The Community Development Director said that was correct as they didn't
have that information in the code before, and it is being introduced now. She
said this is the revision to the current code in response to the business, so
staff is clarifying the code and introducing new flexibility, and now what is
being proposed is that painted vehicle signs are being permitted according to
certain circumstances in different zones in the City.
Ms. Benson said if staff tells them they have to have a certain color sign, a
certain vehicle sign done professionally or whatever, tell them and give them
that latitude, which staff is not. She said staff is saying no vehicle signs, only
painted vehicles.
Chairman Buchanan said staff's proposal and staffs position at this point in
time is that signs mounted on vehicles should be prohibited.
Ms. Benson said she is asking that staff please let them have some kind of a
sign, and it is okay if it has to be a certain size, color and structure; tell them
what that is and let them abide by that and they will.
Commissioner Addington said he believes she is saying that we are telling her
everything she can't do, but we're not giving her any suggestions on what she
can do.
The Community Development Director said they have talked about umbrellas,
banners, menu signs and each tenant can have a wall sign, several window
signs, so there are five or six types of signs that a tenant can have, so staff has
suggested other ways to advertise the business without being with a structured
vehicle sign. She said they have incorporated the delivery van or truck, that
it can stay in the parking lot permanently and on the street on a temporary
basis, so this is what staff is proposing in response to the business owners'
request, and they haven't gone as far as proposing to permit what is out there
right now.
Commissioner Addington asked if staff has had the opportunity to present
these alternatives to this particular merchant.
18
The Community Development Director said she has presented it to the
representatives of the Chamber and it was accepted but not to particular
businesses. She said she has not had the chance to do this, but is willing to
do so.
GENE MCMEANS
CHAMBER OF COMMERCE/RIVERSIDE HIGHLAND WATER
2025 S. GLENWOOD
COLTON
Mr. McMeans said with regard to Vice -Chairman Sims statement that the
pasta sign was "ugly", he is not disagreeing with that, as he thinks it catches
your eye because it is ugly, but nonetheless, what he wanted to explore a little
closer is the sign that the sub shop has on its vehicle. He asked if this sign
was pretty or acceptable, and asked if this would be an acceptable sign for the
pasta shop. He said maybe from the Commission's standpoint, there are
certain signs on vehicles that if done right, would be acceptable.
Vice -Commissioner Sims felt this could become a very subjective situation
(inaudible) sees Mr. T.V. Video everywhere (inaudible) thought it was a little
bit more rustic, though innovative (inaudible). He said he looks at other signs
going up, for example, at the Village Foods store which is just atrocious, and
he thinks as business people, he thinks everybody would agree that this is
unacceptable and detracts from businesses. He said staff is dealing with the
actual Code, which states "Y., Y and Z".
Mr. McMeans said these folks are only asking for some ground to build off
of, and looking at (inaudible) vehicles, and what they may have seen as
Commissioners, one maybe was not acceptable because of the quality, and
maybe one is acceptable because of its quality, and if that is the case, maybe
something can be written in to that extent.
SHARON HOCKNEY
11825 TERRACE VIEW DRIVE
G.T.
Ms. Hockney said she is a newcomer to Grand Terrace and she is an
impartial observer to all this, but in her primary profession, she spends a lot
of time looking for places, and she sees a double standard here. She said with
regard to Section 18.80.160 (C) Animated Signs, because of a traffic problem,
staff doesn't want to have animated signs, but there is no greater traffic risk
than looking for a sign you can't see, and she spends a great deal of her time
doing this at a great risk to her life because Grand Terrace's signs are off the
street -- they are not readily visible from the street. She said if she was
19
looking for the sub shop, if the sign was not on the truck, she would very
easily get rear -ended, because the Stater Bros. truck flying down to the
warehouse doesn't care that she is looking for an address or sign, so staff has
a double standard, they don't want to have problems with traffic because of
animated signs, but it is alright to have them where they can't be seen from
the street. She said as a newcomer to Grand Terrace, she is also interested
in a business that is currently in Grand Terrace, but with the ordinance here,
she would not be interested in buying a business in Grand Terrace, because
the business she is interested in is not visible from the street, and she spends
half of her working hours at that business trying to tell people how to find
them, and they are a little luckier because they are in the Stater Bros.
Shopping Center. She said these other people are not so lucky as they don't
have Stater Bros. as a marker to locate them. She stated that she works with
911, and when a screen displays, they have an address, and Grand Terrace's
addresses are not that visible let alone their business names. She said along
with the address they have displayed, they have a business name and a
notification that it is either a residence or a business, and the seconds that are
lost looldng for these stupid, beautiful monument signs could mean
somebody's life or the existence of their business. She said she realizes there
is an image staff would like to create in Grand Terrace, and that is wonderful,
but Moreno Valley had an image to create too, and now they are on the verge
of bankruptcy because they don't have businesses, and this is going to happen
right here. She said staff should take a lesson from history.
Commissioner Munson said apparently there are two individual businesses in
Grand Terrace and the only way they seem to have been able to attract
customers is to put up a sign that can be readily seen by traffic. He stated
that the City does have to have codes, and what he wants to know is if it
would be possible that they can come as an individual business to the
Planning Director or to the Commission and tell them what they want and
that this is the only successful way they can attract business so they can be
given a Conditional Permit on a sign and let them run with it for a while, but
give them guidelines on size and that the sign be tastefully done and bring it
back to the Commission for consideration. He said vehicle signs may have
their place -- they may not like L-Lem, but they do want to keep the businesses
in town, so rather than say a sign is illegal and they aren't going to allow it,
he thinks this is wrong. He thinks the business owner should be allowed to
bring in the sign they want, let them look at it and it will be considered. He
said he didn't want to see them legalized so that everyone can automatically
go up and down the street and put signs on top of trucks -- he doesn't want
that. He stated that there might be a reason that some of these signs should
be allowed.
20
Commissioner Van Gelder said she has seen the pink sign on the truck many
times as she drives Barton Road a lot and she drives the speed limit, and she
hasn't yet been able to drive past it and read all of the sign as there is so
much on there. She said she would rather it not be there too, but we have to
do the best we can with what we have. She said signs in every community
have been an ongoing problem for 100 years; the business community has
always wanted a lot of signs and the cities have always tried to put some
structure with having those signs, so this is not anything new. She said this
community as well as other communities have been struggling with this for a
lot of years, and not to many times are we ever able to make everybody
happy. She said she has more of a problem with signs in the windows than
anything else, and she thinks they will be addressing this very soon, but they
have to make sure that these can be read by people who are driving by, and
she doesn't think they are really accomplishing much by doing it if people
can't even read it.
BRUCE CASH
21496 MAIN STREET
G.T.
Mr. Cash said he had hoped to wait until the end of this to make his
comments, but the hour is getting late and he is afraid that the damage he
might suffer with his spouse is greater than getting the comments in now. He
stated that he is also Executive Vice President of Hood Communications,
which happens to be the largest employer in the City of Grand Terrace. He
said he is understanding now after hearing from some businesses tonight that
being the largest employer is not a real difficult task these days in terms of
the number of businesses in our community, but nevertheless, they are the
largest employer and they are very proud of it and are happy to be here. He
said as Vice President of the Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors, his
comments are particularly framed around that issue. He said the Chamber
of Commerce considers their involvement in this Sign Ordinance issue a
privilege, and they are delighted that they were able to come together and
work with the staff and talk about issues that rep. sent the business
community overall. He said there is no doubt that there would have been
many opportunities for other businesses to be here tonight and probably
would have been except that they understood and new that the Chamber had
been working on their behalf as they should be, and he appreciates the
comments that the independent business owners have made, and while they
are very specific to their needs, he can appreciate the Commissioner's
comments about how those get accomplished between that business owner
and a staff member in the latitude of the ordinances in place or that might be
in place in the future. He said in terms of the overall business climate, the
Chamber is interested in encouraging businesses and helping them succeed in
21
Grand Terrace. He stated that they have a passion for that and are working
hard at that, and in cooperation with the City and bodies like this, they can
be successful, but it is going to take all of them working together. He said
they recognize the partnership they have with the City and the business
community, and they are working tirelessly for a positive result, and it is going
to require all of them to become innovative in a very vicious and uncertain
economic time. He said their business has suffered a great consequence as
a result of the economy and it's having an impact even on a company their
size, and he can imagine how issues that are locally controlled can have an
impact on much smaller businesses as well. He said this causes us to look to
flexibility and to be cognizant of the fact that this is not the mid 80's -- this
is the mid 90's, and the rules are different and our flexibility needs to follow
that. He said they believe there needs to be flexibility and regulation while
yet maintaining standards for positive planning and development and
including the Signage Ordinance. He said the Chamber of Commerce
embraces the fundamental principles which Patrizia talked about earlier
tonight, yet they recognize that businesses don't survive on key principles --
they survive on getting things done, so they would like to see this entire effort
move forward, and he appreciates the time line that has been established to
do this. He said the Chamber of Commerce's input in the Sign Ordinance is
intended to address all of the City; not any specific geographical area. He
said they are interested in having a positive impact on every aspect of the City
and the businesses that are here. He stated that the Chamber recognizes, as
does the City, that appropriate and visible advertisement can be the difference
between success or failure for some businesses. He stated that his business
will not succeed or fail because of the sign that is in front of their business,
as that is not the type of entity they are, and it is very different from the ones
they've heard about tonight, yet overall, advertisement is essential for most of
the retail businesses in this community. He expressed their desire to promote
commerce, enhancement customer base and improve visibility and yet to do
so in a manner which is consistent with sound planning principles, yet we must
be creative, expeditious and concerned far greater than we have been in the
past. He said as a Chamber, they have put unique frameworks together to
identify and focus on what the solutions are to the problems businesses in- :':is
community have and not just dwell on the problem, but look for real
solutions. He said they even have material about that, where they look at the
business and offer them solutions to their specific problem. He said he
believes the Planning Commission is in the same mindset tonight. He stated
they believe the timing is critical in this regard, and that an increase in
commercial and retail vacancies in our City robs us of the full -service
provision that we need to make our citizens and create economic imbalance
for those surviving businesses who are left to support our community through
their limited sales tax revenues. He said in a sense, he thinks we need to
lighten up, maybe literally, as some have talked about the need to illuminate
22 O
aspects of our City tonight, but in terms of regulation, there are new
opportunities, and we have got to come up with ways in order to succeed. He
said he is concerned, representing the largest business in this community with
the highest number of employees, that he is in a business and community
where the balance of businesses are evacuating. He stated he is concerned
when he sees a vacant building, and he is concerned when he doesn't have
quick answers to these kinds of problems, and so it is not only affecting the
businesses that can't survive, it is questioning the businesses that are currently
still here and having an impact on their decision of whether to stay or to go.
He said their visibility, their advertisement success and so forth has a big
factor and a big play in all of that. He said it is time for all of us, the
Chamber included, to join together, and they have thoroughly enjoyed working
this intimately with the Planning staff and the City Manager and now with this
distinguished body to try and create a solution to what the problems are. He
said he is delighted when he hears Commissioners talking about specific needs
and how they can create a solution and give the Planning Director the
flexibility that she needs. He said his hat is off to her for the difficulty that
she encounters, yet he thinks at time, we as a City have taken on more so the
role of the enforcer than the promoter of business and commerce, and he
thinks we need to strive for balance. He said we need to work together in a
sincere community effort and be creative regarding ways we can help our
businesses starting right now. He said they as a Chamber of Commerce ask
that, through the Commission's consideration of these provisions tonight, not
just as a Planning Commissioner but as an investor in the community. He
said Hood Communications is an investor and every member of the Chamber
of Commerce is an investor in the community that they give full consideration
to those items that they have before them. He said he thinks even in the item
that they are up to now, Item 2D, with regard to Portable Signs, yes, overall
as a Chamber, they embrace the concept and the overall package they have
before them, but they would not be sad at all if they saw sections like the
Portable Sign issue and so forth given extraordinary consideration, just from
a personal note, not as part of the Chamber at all, but in his perspective, if
he had the choice between a vehicle sitting on the street with a sign pasted
on the back of it and an A -frame sign sitting in the public right-of-way, he
would elect to go with the A -frame sign, and yet this is prohibited under the
current Code and even under the recommendations of the City staff, so he
reiterated the fact, even from a personal note, that they should drive for
flexibility and look for ways to succeed. He said as the largest employer in
the community, they are very concerned, they want to know that this
Commission hears these issues, they want to know that there is a diligence
with regard to addressing them, and he applauds the City staff and the
Chamber of Commerce and this body for being interested in working together
for a positive solution.
23
Chairman Buchanan said he had some general comments, but at this point,
they should go through the more specific items. He said 2D is the issue of
portable signs, and asked if anyone had any specific comments.
Vice -Chairman Sims said (inaudible).
The Community Development Director said not on the sidewalk. She said
she has tried that several times, but there is a tremendous liability, and
nobody wants to pay for it, basically, so the only thing she could get through
was the real estate signs for companies when the property owner allows them,
as the property owner is still responsible to maintain the parkway, which
belongs to the City, so the City is assuming that liability, but not for anybody
else.
Vice -Chairman Sims said (inaudible).
The Community Development Director said what they are proposing is that
the A -frame signs be allowed, similarly to the banners, anyplace on the
property, but not on the public right-of-way. She said a business could have
a banner, a truck on the parking lot like Mr. T.V. Video, a menu sign on the
grass, a table outside with inventory on the valance, window sign -- they could
have all of those signs at the same time.
Commissioner Munson asked if there was any one particular section that has
not been discussed that they wished to discuss. He said he thought staff has
done a very good job in explaining all of this, so he sees no reason to go
through each one unless there is something in there that the people want to
discuss. He said he thinks they can close this issue tonight and bring it back
as staff has requested with the public hearing, and then at that time, they
could go through these if necessary to put them into the code in a proper
manner.
Chairman Buchanan said he thinks a lot of people had an opportunity to get
their statements on the record when they were discussing the vehicles signs,
so maybe rather than continue to go through on an item -by -item basis, he
asked if there was anyone in the audience as well as staff and the Commission
who would like to add any more to this discussion at this point in time to do
so now.
Vice -Chairman Sims said he thinks that all these things are nice, but they
need a platform to operate from (inaudible). He said they don't have a
village (atmosphere) on Barton Road yet, and it will take a lot of years, but
this body had a vision, and maybe that vision doesn't (inaudible) for those
people who have to grow with it, but it is still a vision, and he felt they have
24
to have that futuristic vision, or it will end up a strip commercial
development. He said maybe it helps the individual business owner, but it
doesn't help the community as a whole. He said he also has a problem with
setting rules that can't be enforced. He said the Chamber of Commerce has
to be the connection point for the City (inaudible).
Commissioner Wilson said he thinks he's been around long enough to see a
good sign situation and a bad sign situation, and he thinks they all know what
those things are. He said when they start considering signs and advertising,
they also realize business has a lot to do with marketing, but he thinks it is a
valid point that when someone puts a big, red sign someplace, the next guy
also wants to put up a big, red sign, and after a while you get a whole town
with big, red signs, and nobody can see the big, red sign anymore. He said he
thinks what they are talking about here is community support and creative
uses, and he thinks what they have now, which they probably didn't have
before but what is actually proposed now is the opportunity for creative uses,
and what they have to do as a community and as businesses in the community
is open our minds a little bit towards those creative uses. He said granted,
they have some signs that are considered off -site signs that are illegal and may
be transportable in a truck or may be off -site signs fixed someplace, but it
would seem to him that there has been some discussion that there might be
certain areas in the town, not in the public right-of-way, because they
understand what the liability is, that could be worked on so far as what the
Chamber and the City could identify as areas that won't distract from the
community but will also benefit the businesses, and it would seem to him that
they could combine that. He said an off -site sign program could be
appropriate and contribute to the community as well as the businesses, and
maybe even operate a program where the City of Grand Terrace is an "action
town of unique solutions", where they take the horse by the reins and pinpoint
these areas and possibly even get the community behind this kind of thing,
where the City of Grand Terrace supports a particular business for the month.
He said there are some areas near the entrance of the freeway where it would
be appropriate to almost have a monument kind of situation, where the City
of Grand Terrace would basically be honoring these businesses and promoting
them, because the City recognizes that America is made of small businesses.
He said it would seem to him that creativity is called for, and he thinks this
opens up an opportunity for business and community to work together for
some creative solutions. He recommended to staff that they take this
document and keep an open mind and work toward these creative solutions.
He said this is flexible, workable government, and sometimes they get caught
up with, '"Tell me what I'm supposed to do, and I'll just do it", and on the
other end of it, we say, "I need some flexibility here", you can't have both, so
they have to work creatively toward something that can be accomplished as
a community, so that is his recommendation.
Wi
Commissioner Addington said he sits on both sides of the table: he is a
Planning Commissioner but he is also a sole proprietor and owns an
engineering business in town. He said his business does not depend upon the
signage (inaudible), and his business is struggling to survive, and he can
understand the businesses in town doing what they need to do to survive. He
said he doesn't necessarily agree with the signs they have put up, but he does
understand why they are putting those signs up. He said he doesn't see this
as being a simple issue to resolve, but he does think the community will be
able to resolve this issue (inaudible).
Commissioner Van Gelder said she thinks the City has addressed some of the
issues that are important and thinks they can continue to do this, and they do
have some problems, but she considers the City as very fortunate when she
looks at some of the surrounding towns. She said if you drive down Baseline
or Sierra Way in Fontana, they are incredible, and so in many ways, they are
ahead of the game. She said she cut one article out of the newspaper from
Letters to the Editor from October 25, which reads, "In response to the
October 18 article about Baseline businesses being riled about receiving
notices about their accumulated temporary window signs, there is another side
to this story. When I drive up to a small business, in particular, a small
convenience store that has its front windows covered in paper, hand painted
signs or merchandise, I refuse to go in. I do not know if there is a hold up
in progress or any other dangerous condition inside. I move on, and shop
where I can at least get a clear view of the cashier's area'. She said these are
also issues that need to be addressed, but she has every confidence they can
do it.
Chairman Buchanan said the comment has been made several times that this
is the age old struggle -- businesses' desires for what they consider adequate,
necessary and appropriate signage vs. the regulating authorities' desires to
have some sort of order and aesthetics placed on the system. He said it is
particularly heightened right now because the community is in a transitional
phase, at least that is the plan the community has set for itself, to transition
from the strip center orientation to the pedestrian oriented, village feel and
there isn't anybody in this town that is going to sit there and tell everyone this
has happened, because it hasn't happened. He said if they keep building strip
centers and treating strip centers like strip centers, it will never happen, and
that is the reason for the Barton Road Specific Plan, to start this City in the
direction that the City has decided to go, and he is not saying everybody in
the City agrees with that. He said there are a lot of people that don't want
the Barton Road Specific Plan, but that is what the elected officials of the
City concluded with a lot of public input, and that is the operating scheme
that they are operating under here. He said the City is in transition and the
economy is in transition -- at least he hope it is a transition and that the
26
pendulum has started to swing back up and everybody is going to start doing
better because he is in business, too, and he knows what it has been like. He
said this is a particularly rough period for small business owners and for
consumers, and it is a very difficult period of time to enforce restrictions on
businesses that, in good times, nobody would think twice about. He said he
thought Commissioner Wilson was exactly right on the money when he said
this is the type of situation that calls for creative and innovative thought
solutions, not just because the economy is the way it is, but because the City
is also in a transitional phase, and you can't let development lock the
community into a path that is different than the path the community has
elected to go. He said on the same token, you have to have a community left
to walk that path in the future -- you can't drive everybody out of business.
He said he doesn't believe for a minute that Grand Terrace is a difficult
community to do business in, as he has dealt with communities that are
difficult to do business in, and this is not one. He said there are aspects of
this community that make it difficult for a lot of retail businesses, stating the
fact that they have one significant street that goes through the community and
a lot of people on that street are not driving through Grand Terrace looking
for a place to stop -- they are just going through the community, and it makes
it very difficult to draw that traffic in. He said he thinks the people that live
in Grand Terrace tend to be very supportive of the community and the
community businesses. He said the last thing he wants to see is Barton Road
lined with vehicles with signs mounted on top, on the other hand, the other
thing he doesn't want to see are a lot of vacant store fronts. He said what
they really have are situations where, and a lot of this comes down to the
philosophy of planning and the role of the City in the planning process, most
people don't want a City government or any kind of government to say, "No,
sorry, we already have too many of those kinds of businesses -- you're not
welcome in our community", or, "No, we don't like the building that you are
planning on putting up, do it our way or not at all". He said most developers
want the City off their back, and there has to be a compromise in that, and
they have done that, and what he has heard tonight is a developer came in
and put in fairly attractive complex on the comer of Barton and Canal. He
said it is a nice looking set of buildings, and the Commission was very pleased
with it when it came through for Site and Architectural Review, and :t, was
oriented in a way that started that whole Barton Road process -- structured
in a way that other development can dove tail into it and expand into
something. He said now what we are hearing is that the developer built that
in such a way that it is not good for retail because you can't see it, and the
monument sign that the developer chose to place out there wasn't well -
conceived, because it is too hard to see, and business owners have moved into
that and now they are in a sense turning to the City and saying, "We need
your help to get people in here because this is a bad situation". He said he
wants to see the businesses succeed and he believes that the City has a role
27
in developing business and helping community development, and that is part
of Patrizia's title -- Community Development Director. He said that on the
other hand, he doesn't think it is fair to say that the City is somehow
responsible for a business' failure if the business isn't working because of the
location that the business owner chose or the way that the developer oriented
the building away from visibility or put up the monument sign. He stated it
is a fine line to walk; most people he talks to don't want to see more
government involvement in their business, on the other hand, there must be
a level playing field for all the businesses in the community, and he doesn't
think any business owner would want there to be a "free for all" in terms of
signage, if they really thought about it. He said as Commissioner Wilson
noted, the first business puts up the bright red sign and their business jumps
50%, then the guy up the street is going to say that was a great idea and his
is going to go up, and every business in between is going to say, "My business
is no longer visible", or, "My little, nicely designed sign can't be seen anymore
-- I've got to compete". He stressed that they don't want to see sign wars, and
that is one of the things that the regulations have to do is prevent
inappropriate sign wars from taking place. He said he doesn't have an answer
to this question, and with regard to when he was talking about traffic
reduction earlier, he doesn't have an answer to that either, but he is
encouraged by the steps they are taking, and the sense he is getting is maybe
they ought to look at developing some aspect of the Sign Ordinance, that it
provides for a flexibility mechanism -- some sort of creative concept where the
City's goals and concepts are the guidelines and businesses have an
opportunity to present their own sign specific plan that would supersede the
otherwise rigid requirements of the sign code. He said maybe this is a good
idea or maybe not, as he knows how much additional work this could create
for staff, but he thinks this kind of concept of flexibility and the ability to
examine under particular circumstances might create something that they
could use as a springboard for achieving some unique results. He said the
problem with ordinances is they tend to restrict creativity, and he would like
to see a creativity option built into the ordinance, and on the other hand, it
is nice to have the ordinance because then (business owners) know what they
can do, they know what is prohibited, they know what is acceptable, and they
can go in and get their permit over the counter and go ahead with what is
permissible. He said if what is permissible under the guidelines isn't going to
work for someone's business and there is a particular reason for that, and they
feel they can actually help the City achieve its goals by deviating from the
black and white, perhaps they can have an opportunity to present that, and
maybe the Sign Ordinance currently already has that built into it, but if it
does, nobody seems really sure how to go about doing that, so perhaps they
can beef that up a little bit.
28 `-�
The Community Development Director said there is a portion of Sign
Ordinance that says if a sign is not strictly in conformance, the Planning
Commission has the discretionary power to alter and approve the sign,
however, this has never been used for the prohibited section, because basically
a prohibited sign is a prohibited sign. She said with this proposal, they are
putting some exceptions to the prohibited sign section and bringing some of
those signs to be discretionarily approved, so what they are proposing for
vehicle signs is to develop design guidelines that will help staff to see what
kind of vehicle signs are approvable or not, and if the applicant does not
agree with staff recommendations, they will come to the Planning
Commission, so they can use the flexibility that they already have in the
ordinance. She said the only problem she sees is that staff and the Chamber
group that reviewed this agree that painted vehicle signs are acceptable, and
maybe the Commission feels they should go one step further.
Chairman Buchanan said he doesn't think it is that simple, as he himself
would not want to see vehicle -mounted signs, and he is not speaking for any
of the other six Commissioners, but he knows he doesn't want to see them,
and the people that addressed that issue have said they have found them
effective for their particular circumstance, but if there is something else that
would work, they are willing to try that, too, and what he is hoping is that
somehow other things can be identified, because roof -mounted signs are very
bad, and he thinks vehicle -mounted signs, especially on the roofs of vehicles,
are very bad. He said sidewalk signs, signs on the park strips -- those kinds
of things can become a disaster for Barton Road in particular from an
aesthetic standpoint, and once you open the door to those things, they
proliferate.
The Community Development Director said one of their principles initially
was that these types of signs are symbols of poor commercial areas, and that
is why they are trying to separate themselves from it. She said one alternative
they have given, which is not very creative, per request of the Chamber, is the
portable signs that were prohibited. She said right now, under certain
circumstances, they are not prohibited anymore according to this proposal, so
if someone wants to have a truck sign maybe they can install an A -frame sign
as an alternative. She said she is not sure they should revise the ordinance
to address specific circumstances of this business or that business; she thinks
they need to revise the ordinance in order to have a bottom line by
eliminating the prohibitiveness of these types of signs, like the portable signs
and the vehicle painted signs. She said she thinks they are opening up that
discretionary area under this section for the Planning Commission and staff
to review, and it does not yet address some of the major businesses that
actually produced all these reviews. She said the major reason this whole
thing is here has not been resolved unless those businesses agree to use the
29
portable or painted signs or the City decides to help business and go into the
business of advertising. She said some cities have an economic development
department, and all they do is sell the City, but we do not have one, and she
has tried several times to create that kind of environment, and it is very
difficult here because the image of the City is not something that everybody
is very interested in right now, but in the future, she is sure that is going to
be one of the ways the cities are going to help the businesses. She said she
doesn't know if it will be possible in a fast way, but she thinks the City is
much closer than it was with the current Sign Ordinance, but she still doesn't
see how they can have a Sign Ordinance that would satisfy the two businesses.
She said she doesn't see how they can alter the Sign Ordinance just to satisfy
those businesses or create a special flexibility just for those businesses. She
said she believes that in the Potomac Center, if the monument sign is revised
since it is not efficient, if they have banners and A -frame signs and umbrellas
on the outside and their own vehicle painted, she thinks they will have all the
advertising they would need. She said in terms of the industrial area, if the
sign is a painted vehicle instead, she thinks it would do the job, and it doesn't
have to be painted on the side -- it can be painted on the back on the glass;
she doesn't know exactly where, as they have to develop guidelines.
Vice -Chairman Sims said (inaudible), stating it is just like the Village Store
at the comer of Barton Road and Mt. Vernon. He said they are trying to
achieve a certain advertising (inaudible) and they have put out the poorest
quality. He said he didn't have a problem with what they are trying to
achieve, but the way they are going about it is not conducive (inaudible). He
said if we can give them some guidelines, and tell them what can be allowed
temporarily (inaudible). He said he is waiting for the signs on that store to
climb up to the top of the roof with spray cans and stencils, because that is
the next step -- they are almost there. He said it is not designed for that type
of thing being right at the comer.
Chairman Buchanan said the Commission was assured by the applicant that
it was not a convenience -type business when it was approved.
Vice -Chairman Sims said he knows they can't enforce anything on them right
now, but if they can offer these people flexibility in different ways to achieve
what they want in a more tasteful and aesthetically pleasing way, it would be
strongly recommended.
The Community Development Director said this is the difficult part, because
when she thought about developing design guidelines, she thought about
calling a sign company to find out techniques of painting signs on vehicles --
mostly they do it for delivery vehicles. She said a lot of trucks have them, the
freight trucks that go nationally from the east coast to the west coast -- there
30
are a lot of painted vehicles everywhere, so there are a lot of techniques, so
she is going to develop those types of guidelines. She said to develop
guidelines for signs attached to trucks, in her opinion, it would be an
enormous task, because of what she had seen on Barton Road after the sign
inventory. There was a banner put on top of a pick-up truck with two 2 X 4's,
and it was attached to a truck, and some of them are well done and some of
them are not well done, but she thinks it is very difficult to have guidelines
for that. She said maybe they could allow them on a temporary basis without
any guidelines, but she thinks it is very difficult to develop guidelines for those
types of signs, stating she has never seen it. She said this is not common in
sign ordinances, and the City's Sign Ordinance is one of the most flexible that
she has ever seen in her Planning career, and she has never seen a Sign
Ordinance that says prohibited signs may vary from the ordinance if the
Planning Commission decides so. She said the Planning Director has some
discretionary power, and when the business requests, they revise things, and
they have done several resolutions in response to businesses because they
want this change or that change. She said this is one more time staff is trying
to respond to businesses, but there is a limit to developing guidelines. She
said she has never seen it and does not know exactly what the parameters
could possibly be. She said there would be signs attached to the truck -- some
of them of better materials, some of worse materials, but they are still a
symbol of those areas that are not so good. She said a monument sign is a
symbol just as a sign on top of a truck is a symbol. She said she has never
seen a truck sign so well done, but it could be possible. She stated she
doesn't know how else to be creative in terms of signs attached to trucks, how
they can do it differently, but this will take time, it is not that she is not
favorable to it. She said all rules have exceptions, and maybe that could have
an exception for these two businesses.
Inaudible conversation from audience.
JOHN ELIOT, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
22790 RAVEN WAY
G.T.
Mr. Eliot said as the Executive Vice President of the Chamber, he has
probably talked to more businesses than anybody else here. He said he is
really happy to see the interchange between everyone here, and he thinks they
are all coming from the same place -- they want a great city, they want
businesses to prosper, and they want this to be a first class place to live. He
stated that one thing he thinks the Commissioners might consider is in the
past, they have had situations where developers have created these shopping
centers and in some cases have created the problem they are trying to deal
with. He said many of the City's shopping centers go back and deep away
31
from the street, they have very low visibility for those that are in there, and
that creates the problem they are trying to overcome there. He said the
businesses that are in those centers don't have a way of being seen, and that
was in the creation of them and done probably by people that preceded
everyone here. He said at this time, they are trying to find solutions to
keeping businesses alive, and the interchange here and things that have been
said are all on the right track. He said this is a difficult problem, and Patrizia
and the City staff have been extremely cooperative with the Chamber and the
people that have come in and they are on a daily basis cooperating with the
Chamber on business problems and obviously everyone here today is
interested in doing the same thing. He said this kind of cooperation is the
kind of thing he thinks will help them to overcome these problems, and some
of the problems they are trying to overcome came from plans and goals that
people set before the City, and maybe they didn't understand or couldn't tell
what the results of their actions would do, and the businesses that are now
taking and using those strip centers have a problem in getting trade in there
so they can stay alive, and it would be to everyone's benefit if they do, as
everyone as property owners and business owners suffer when any business
loses out in the town. He said they are all on the same track, and asked
everyone to kindly take a look as driving through the City, and he thinks
everyone will see the buildings as built create a situation that the businesses
are asking for some relief from. He said he doesn't have the specific answer,
stating they tried to look at the portable sign portion of the code and pull it
out of the prohibited sign area and get some alternatives, stating this may be
an answer and it may not, that this is what that section was for and what the
Chamber initially suggested. He said nobody he knows of likes trucks on the
street, and nobody wants to see a (bunch) of signs like Hollywood or any of
these other strip centers, but that is not what (the business owners) are asking
for -- they are asking for some reasonable answer that gives them the
opportunity to let the people know they are there.
The Community Development Director said at the next meeting, staff will
bring final proposals to the Commission, and the public hearing has already
been noticed and there is a schedule to v^ to the City Council as well, so
ideally, it seems to her that this issue of the truck signs is the issue that is
standing, and everything else seems to be acceptable, although she stated she
doesn't know if the Planning Commission has any other issues with the other
items that staff proposed, for example the monument signs which have been
significantly increased. She said there are a lot of changes, and she doesn't
know if they realize that, and there is more flexibility and larger signs. She
said if the vehicle section is the only one she will need to focus on, she would
like to know.
32 O
Commissioner Van Gelder asked how the Chamber of Commerce felt about
the provisions for window signs.
The Community Development Director said their original request was to
eliminate the policy, as they thought it was a regulation or rule that required
window signs to be ordered on the top and lower portions of the window, but
this is not a rule; staff does not send Notices of Violation because people put
window signs up in an unorderly basis -- staff only sends notices when there
is more than 25% of the window area covered. She said it is just staff policy
that when people ask how they should put signs on the windows, staff tells
them to put it in such a way that the police have surveillance capacity to the
store, for example on the bottom or top, so the center portion will allow
seeing the cashier. She said the Chamber didn't really have any problems
because it is not really a regulation right now, so there is not really a violation
if the people don't organize the window signs that way. She said the issue of
25% of the window area was not discussed.
Commissioner Van Gelder said, for instance, on the Beer and Wine Deli at
the comer of Mt. Vernon and Barton Road, they probably don't cover more
than 25% of the windows either, but it looks awful.
The Community Development Director said window signs are not on the
prohibited section of the sign ordinance, so they were not necessarily
addressed directly, and they were satisfied with the summary provided on the
brochure, so there was no discussion really on window signs. She said window
signs can be enforced with stronger support -- if staff has more support from
the community and City Council, they would be able to enforce the window
signs and make sure they have the right amounts and aren't on the walls.
Commissioner Van Gelder said she wanted to ask the Chamber a question,
stating that in every business, there are firms that do consulting and surveys,
and she asked if in the business community, if there was a company that
would do surveys or consulting to try to show what signs in the window do to
enhance businesses. She said she attacks this from a personal standpoint, and
she is not apologizing for that, but she does not read signs in the windows and
she never does, and she would like to go down to Staters and stand in front
of their store, and when people go in ask them if they read the sign on the
window before they went in.
Commissioner Addington said in this day and age, you can get a consultant
for just about anything you want.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if a company would do a survey or study on
whether those window signs really do enhance businesses or not -- do people
33
go in stores because they read a sign on the window?
Commissioner Addington said he is sure there is a marketing company out
there that would be happy to provide that survey for her. (Inaudible.)
Commissioner Van Gelder said she is not saying this City per se, just in
general.
Commissioner Addington said this is not in his purview of expertise, a he is
a civil engineer.
Commissioner Van Gelder said she is speaking to him as a business merchant.
Commissioner Addington said this is out of his area of expertise, as they are
retail and they depend on walk-in traffic, and what they need to do to bring
in that walk-in traffic into their business.
Commissioner Van Gelder said she wants someone to show her that this
really does enhance business.
The Community Development Director said the data she has from sign
experts is the more signs there are in the windows, the more it starts
functioning as wallpaper and the more cluttered it becomes. Efficiency is lost.
Inaudible conversation.
The Community Development Director said it depends upon how much
competition you have.
Commissioner Van Gelder said particularly when you are driving.
The Community Development Director said mainly, when they have explicit
materials and everything else like ours have right now.
Commissioner Huss said she doesn't own a business and doesn't have these
problems that other people have, but as she read further, it looked like there
were some things that were giving them some alternative solutions, whereas
she feels like all they want are those vehicle signs and they are going to stop
right there and not read any further. She said she knows this is an economic
time, but she doesn't feel like the City of Grand Terrace is responsible, and
it seems hard for her too that if they say they are on the comer of Canal and
Barton Road, somebody couldn't find them. She said it seems that if they
give directions and say they are on the comer and there is a stoplight there,
(someone should be able to find them). She said the business owners are
34 O
saying this is what they want to do and the City is saying this is probably not
going to be approved, they are asking the City to tell them what to do, and
staff has gone further and brought some things out. She said staff needs some
input as to what the business owner's think would be good for them that will
be acceptable. She said it doesn't appear that anybody in the City that she's
asked thinks the vehicle signs are attractive.
Chairman Buchanan said this item was for discussion and he feels they have
had a good exchange.
The Community Development Director asked if there was any other section
the Commission would like her to review or bring back, for example,
monument signs, asking if anyone had any problems with what was proposed.
Commissioner Huss said maybe the monument sign at Canal and Barton
Road is to close to the street light, asking if it should be closer to the building
on the other side.
The Community Development Director said the problem with that monument
sign is that the colors are not contrasting, and they have wood siding so it
makes the letters narrower.
Commissioner Huss asked if they could change the color.
The Community Development Director said, according to the tenants, right
now they can not afford to alter it, however, yes, it would be allowed.
Commissioner Huss asked how expensive it would be to get some paint and
change the colors.
Mr. Benson said this complex has been lost to a bank and is now being run
by a management firm -- it is not the people who originally had it because
they lost the amount of money to stay alive through this economic time. He
said right now the Towne & Country Center is harp ng by its fingernails, and
you can probably expect to see bankruptcy on this and it go into receivership
of a bank and perhaps something can be done about this by trying to allow
the businesses to survive a little bit better. He said if they have signs out
front, like a monument sign that can't be read and the businesses aren't seen,
they don't make income, they don't pay their rent or they leave the center,
this winds up as a receivership going back to the bank and it is gone. He said
one of the things with the hardware store was there was a new owner that is
blocked out out of a receivership from a bank, and they just probably got it
from a nickel -dime type of thing and they are not about to put a dollar into
it. He said the business owners that are in there, unless they want to reach
35
into their own personal pockets and redo the monument sign, are really
caught between a rock and a hard place.
The Community Development Director said she had seen a survey from
Yucaipa done with merchants on how much percent of their sales depends on
signs, and it was 5% according to that survey. She said some surveys may
show differently depending upon the type of business and the scale, the time
of the year, etc. She said she thinks they do need to be creative and feels
they need to be open, but they also need to have their limits of quality. She
said they may have something approved for the short run which would be very
positive, but cumulatively, it would be very negative for the City, so they need
to be careful. She said they need to have creativity and flexibility but still
establish a limit of quality that they do not want to go below. She said she
still needs to think more about the vehicle signs, and right now she doesn't
have any ideas, but she promised to work on it and possibly contact some of
the businesses, stating she hoped they would contact her, too.
Chairman Buchanan suggested the Director take a look at the sign section
that allows for deviation from strict compliance with the idea of flexibility and
creative solutions in mind just to see if it is adequately written right now, and
if it is, she might want to bring that more to the forefront as part of this
discussion; if it is not adequately written, look at enhancing the way it is
drafted and incorporate some of the general concepts into it to serve as
fundamental guidelines but still have some flexibility. He said he didn't hear
anybody saying they ought to look at a way of keeping vehicle mounted signs.
The Community Development Director said she remembers how this section
is worded. She said it would be applicable, however, what they need to
change is the way they are proposing to amend the ordinance, because what
she is removing from the prohibited section would be automatically subject
to that flexibility, but right now she is only removing from the prohibited
section painted vehicle signs and the portable signs, but she is not removing
anything else. She said right, anything that is not a professionally painted sign
is still in the prohibited section according to these guidelines, -,) it is not
subject to that flexibility.
Chairman Buchanan said maybe the question she needs to ask is whether or
not the flexibility portion of the ordinance should have enough flexibility to
permit, on some basis, an otherwise prohibited sign.
The Community Development Director said this is what they do not have
right now, and there are no variances considered for the prohibited section.
36
Commissioner Wilson volunteered whatever time he could contribute perhaps
on a weekend or evening where they could work with representatives of the
Chamber of Commerce and maybe drive a few areas and try to find some of
those creative uses so they can help staff have something. He recommended
they do this within the next two weeks.
Chairman Buchanan ended the discussion on Item 3 at this time, stating it
would be an item for public testimony and action at the next meeting.
9:45 P.M. TO 9:58 P.M. - BREAK
ITEM #5
Z-93-04/E-93-14
CITY OF GRAND TERRACE
CITYWIDE
TRIP REDUCTION ORDINANCE TO REDUCE VEHICLE EMISSIONS AND IMPROVE
AIR QUALITY WITH THE LEAST ECONOMIC IMPACT ON OUR COMMUNITY
The Planning Technician presented the staff report.
MOTION
PCM-93-66
Z-93-04/E-93-14
MOTION
VOTE
PCM-93-66
Commissioner Munson made a motion to approve Z-93-04 and E-93-14.
Commissioner Huss seconded.
Motion carries. 6-0-1-0. Commissioner V';1son absent.
10:20 P.M. ADJOURNED PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING TO BE HELD ON NOVEMBER 18, 1993.
37
Respectfully submitted, Approved by, O
Patrizia Materassi Dan Buchanan
Community Development Director Chairman, Planning Commission
11-16-93:ma
a\wp51\planning\minutes\11-04-93.m
38 O