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03/15/2007 Community and Economic Development Department (A L I f O R N I A GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING March 15, 2007 The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton Road, Grand Terrace, California, on March 15, 2007 at 7:00 v.m., by Chaimerson Doug Wilson. PRESENT: Doug Wilson, Chairperson Matthew Addington,Vice Chairperson Tom Comstock, Commissioner Darcy McNaboe, Commissioner Brian Phelps, Commissioner Gary Koontz, Community Development Director John Lampe,Associate Planner Jerina Cordova,Planning Secretary - 7:00 P.M. CONVENE SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/ PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING • Call to Order • Pledge of Allegiance led by Commissioner Comstock • Roll Call • Public address to Commission shall be limited to three minutes unless extended by the Chairman. Should you desire to make a longer presentation, please make written request to be agendized to the Director of Community and Economic Development. GENERAL PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: • This is a time for anyone in the audience to speak on any item, which is not on the agenda for this meeting. 22795 Barton Road • Grand Terrace, Galliornia 92313-5295 • 909/ 824-6621 PUBLIC PARTICIPATION FAHIM TANIOS Barton Road Shell Gas Station When I submitted my conditional use permit,I submitted it as a Valero gas station. It had green color or a turquoise color. I changed my mind and I am going to have a Shell gas station. Shell comes with a yellow canopy and they require the building to be white and grey on the bottom. I am asking your permission to change the color from Valero color to Shell colors. The roof was matching Valero colors it was green and grey blending together. If I put the white color and yellow that Shell requires. I am requesting to change the color to Sunrise Blend. This is what it is going to be to match the yellow and the white color of the building. Chair Wilson: Are we looking at a change or requesting a change to a conditional use permit? Fahim Tanios: I am just asking to change the colors. Chair Wilson: We have a Barton Road Specific Plan that governs the requirements for the colors. Have you submitted anything to the staff? Fahim Tanios: Only the colors need to be changed. Everything else is the same. Chair Wilson: We will need you to make a formal submittal to the staff, so that we can make a determination on whether or not those colors are in compliance with the Barton Road Specific Plan. Fahim Tanios: So I will have to submit color blending? Chair Wilson: You will have to submit a request,in writing, for the color change. If the staff have sufficient materials to make and analysis and it is not going to materially affect your conditional use permit they will be able to make a determination on Staff level. If it is going to materially change your conditional use permit and Staff feels it is something that they can't do without a hearing. It will be brought before this body. Unfortunately if it is materially different you can end up experiencing a delay. It would be a good idea that you bring something to us that complies with the Barton Road Specific Plan. Gary L. Koontz,Director: At our last meeting,I believe Vice Chair Addington brought up the issue on the Shell instead of the Valero. It was staffs understanding that the Commission wanted to see this again with the new colors. Chair Wilson: So there is the problem. I understand that Shell has some requirements that they would like to do but that is not the way the Barton Road Specific Plan is set up. We have run into a similar circumstance before and we ended up with an identical condition with the Chevron station on the corner of Barton Road and Mt.Vernon Avenue. - 2 - We had to review those colors and there were some changes that were made to their typical conditions. I would suggest that you bring the materials to us so that we can actually make a call on it. A delay is not in your favor. Fahim Tanios: Like I am saying it is just the color. It is going to be white instead of brown. The white color is basically white. Chair Wilson: Staff knows what we need so bring that information to the staff and they we can go through the procedure. Is the location of the building,where we approved it? Fahim Tanios: Yes Gary L. Koontz,Director: It is exactly per the site plan. It looks different when you have a big building on that side. Rich Shields made sure that everything was exactly where it belonged. Chair Wilson: Just work with staff as soon as you can. ADJOURN SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING CONVENE PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION WORKSHOP ITEMS 1. SUBJECT: Presentation on Community Redevelopment Agency by the City Manager Chair Wilson: Do we have a staff report? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Our first presentation is by the City Manager, Thomas Schwab, concerning the Redevelopment Agency. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: I was asked to come tonight and to talk briefly about our Redevelopment Agency and how it generally works and how it helps fund projects in our city. Apparently there have been some statements about our Redevelopment Agency and its ability to take money from the general fund or give money to the general fund. I would like to talk about Redevelopment in general terms to give the Commission an idea. There may be members of the Commission that know this very well but for those that don't I want to give an outline on what Redevelopment is and how Redevelopment was implemented in this community and how it benefits us today. The next slide is very hypothetical. - 3 - Slide 1 This slide is not any particular community but typically in Redevelopment what happens is that a Redevelopment identifies what is called a Project Area. They go out and find an area that typically is under developed and/or blighted under the definition within the Redevelopment law. They take the area (remember this is a hypothetical area) that meets the definition of blight and for our assumptions we are going to say that the assess value of that property as One Million Dollars ($1,000,000.00) and the current property tax is at one percent are Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000.00) from that parcel. The county share of the Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000.00) property tax is going to be 70% and the school district share is 20% of Two Thousand Dollars ($2,000.00) and the city share is 10% or One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) and that could be a typical scenario in a typical city. That is the project prior to Redevelopments when they are developing a project area. Slide 2 The second step is once you have developed a project area, you need to go to all the affected taxing agencies,in this example we are only using the county, the school district and the city as the affected taxing agencies. However if you have ever looked at your tax bill, it could be many districts that you would negotiate separately. The idea is that if you have a blighted area and that area has a million dollar assessed value and without assistance to that area, that area will never change and that assessed value may go down. Typically the affected taxing agencies will look at this and figure that as long as I continue to get the base amount (the amount that they are currently receiving) they will sign an agreement to allow the Redevelopment Agency to go in and do redevelopment activities that would allow that to grow. They will let anything above the "frozen base" (in this example it would be the One Million Dollar assess value) they will let the Redevelopment Agency capture up to a forty (40) year period; depending on the life of the particular Project area. Under this assumption the ten thousand dollar tax increment is frozen for that forty (40) year period. Redevelopment occurs in the project area it could be that they take on some debt. They could put in off sites if they were going to build an office park, they might go ahead and put in the infrastructure, streets, roads, water power lines and then parcel it out and sell it off as a business park. We are going to assume in this case that the redevelopment activity increases the assessed value to Two Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) due to the redevelopment activity on the parcel. Now the property taxes rise to Twenty Thousand Dollars ($20,000.00) due to the improvements and the increases in the property values. Slide 3 Under this scenario the County receives their Seven Thousand ($7,000.00), School District gets Two Thousand Dollars ($2,000.00), City gets One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) and the Redevelopment gains revenue of Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000.00). They get any increment over and above what was there initially. In theory that Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000.00) is used to pay the debts or any money that is spent on improving that parcel in order to induce development to come to a city. In very sacral terms, that is how Redevelopment is financed in California. _ Slide 4 I want to tell you how it happened in Grand Terrace because ours did not follow that text V book example that I just went over. These two slides that I think are interesting. A Grand Terrace resident brought me the one on the left. That is an aerial photograph of the City of Grand Terrace -4- from 1930. If you look at it you can't see a freeway; Gage Canal is very evident in the picture you can see Barton Road. It is pretty much all orange groves and very rural at that time. The one on the right is a more recent picture of Grand Terrace, obviously we are very close to build out, but I want to talk about what happened in 1979. The City of Grand Terrace was incorporated in 1978. The City father's at that time decided that they wanted to have a Redevelopment Agency to use as a financing tool. They took a little unconventional approach, in my opinion, in that they chose to put the entire city in the Redevelopment Project area. This is a very unusual move and it is something that you could not do today. There were many parts of the community in 1979 that you could never get under any definition of blight. However, they were successful in negotiating and having the plan being adopted with the Redevelopment Agency boundary coterminous with the entire city. As a result of that the Redevelopment Agency benefits from anything that happens in the project area whether or not the Redevelopment Agency has any actual impact on those developments. Every single house, business and the 2% inflator every year went to the Redevelopment Agency and were captured by the agency. Primarily in 1979, the County most likely insisted that the agency in 1980 do what is called a "pass through agreement". This is where we pass through everything but One Million Dollars to the County of San Bernardino. The big taxing agency that we negotiated was the School District. The agency at that time, went to the School District, and said that they would air condition all three schools, they would renovate the pool, and landscaping. Because the way the School District's are funded, average daily attendance at approximately Forty ($40) per day or Six Thousand Dollars ($6,000) per year for each student that attends that school, the state guarantees that they get that average daily attendance. They take how much the school is due based on the number of students that attended and they subtract any locally generated taxes from that amount and the state gives them the balance and makes them whole. By them giving the Agency their tax increment, since the state makes them whole in the end, the district doesn't lose any money. The largest tax increment that we capture is the School District. Slide 5 These are the actual numbers from fiscal year 2005-2006. The Redevelopment Agency generated Four Million Two Hundred Sixty-Four Thousand dollars ($4,264,000.00) and of that amount we have to have Twenty Percent (209/6) set aside for Low-Moderate Income Housing. Redevelopment Law assumes that redevelopment activities eliminate Low-Moderate Income Housing. In our case that isn't necessarily the case, but the law says that Twenty Percent (20%) must go to that so we set aside One Million Two Hundred Thousand dollars ($1,200,000.00) for set aside. We used most of the Eighty Percent (80%) for debt service and for ongoing operations. The Redevelopment Agency generates Four Million dollars ($4,000,000.00) and about Three Million Two Hundred Thousand Dollars ($3,200,000.00) of that is over and above what we would have gotten if we would not have had a Redevelopment Agency. You have to remember that the Redevelopment Agency captures the City growth in our own property taxes. Slide 6 There are probably over a hundred little things that this has benefited from but the large things that we have benefited from are would be building projects using other people's money. The Redevelopment Agency is a financing tool that you can legally use the process in order to generate this money. - 5 Benefits to Grand Terrace since 1980 would be as follows: Neighborhood Redevelopment- We have done about Forty Five (45) single family homes, that were bought from trustee sales and rehabilitated them and sold them to first time home buyers. This was a very successful program; unfortunately we don't do it anymore because of the prices of repos these days. Not very many Low-Moderate Income people can afford to buy a Four Hundred Thousand dollar ($400,000.00) house. Citv Library-This was built through tax increment. Richard Rollins Park- Two Million Two Hundred Thousand dollars was derived from the Redevelopment Agency. Pico Park-This park was done by a refinancing of the Redevelopment Agency in 1994. Grand Terrace Child Care Center-This was built with Redevelopment Agency financing. Grand Terrace Fire Stations-This was one of the first large projects of the Redevelopment Agency. City Hall-This building was entirely built with tax increment bonds Blue Mountain Senior Villas- The 9 Million Dollars that we are contributing to that came from this set aside. I hope that gives you a little idea of how the Redevelopment Agency works in relationship to the City budget and I would be willing to answer any questions on that process. Commissioner Comstock: You mentioned that we have a twenty percent (20%) set aside for low-mod housing and I am wondering if we are not spending it on rehabbing housing stock now, are we using that money for anything currently? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: Of the twenty percent (20%) set aside we just pledged Nine Million Dollars ($9,000,000.00) to the Senior Housing Project. That is going to utilize a bulk of the money for the accumulated funds that we have in the bank and also another two years of financing for that project. Commissioner Comstock: I am familiar with the "use it or lose it"principal. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: I did not mention that. On the housing set aside the state law requires that we use it in five years or we forfeit it to the county. There are no requirements for them to use it in the City so they can use it on a project in the High Desert if they wanted to. In order for use to ensure that it stays here we need to spend it within the five years of when you received the money. The nice thing about the Rehab program is when you buy the house and then rehab it then sell it and get the money back you have five years from that point because it is considered new revenue. Unfortunately,that program was very successful but under the current economy it doesn't work. - 6 - Vice Chair Addington: As part of that program were there any apartments that we could use that money for rehab? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: That is a possibility in the future. One of the things that we have identified is not necessarily rehabbing apartments but we have looked at using some of that money to subsidize some apartment rent. This will allow our housing element to remain certified. That is in our plan but we have not done any of that yet. In the future as we try to find things to use the housing money for that is one of the ideas that we have looked at. Chair Wilson: I know that is a tough scheme because twenty five (25) years ago when I was involved with the City of Los Angeles as they moved further into their Redevelopment circumstances as well as their welfare circumstances. You would go to them and talk to them about affordable housing they would say that is great but the problem is that we don't want to put money into apartments or multiple's but what we will probably do is buy some existing housing stock and rehab it. The only way to make the program work in the long run and try to upgrade the neighborhoods was to do it that way and I don't think it has changed a whole lot. Vice Chair Addington: Just out of curiosity, do we participate with the San Bernardino County Housing Authority with subsidize housing/rentals? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: We do not. Commissioner Comstock: I am curious to the Low-Moderate Income Housing. Are we talking about rehabilitating current stock, because I know with the Senior Villas, I know that is new stock, do we have any plans or opportunities? If a developer were to come in and say that they wanted to put in three plex or four plex and you can make that affordable housing for some one. Will the Redevelopment Agency be able to participate with them? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: If the Redevelopment Agency Board,which is our City Council, chose to participate, that would be something that is eligible. Typically when Redevelopment Agencies look at their housing money they try to build projects that are politically acceptable. Three plex's and four plex's are not thing that most Redevelopment Agencies want to get into. They like to stick to larger projects. We have had a lot of luck with Single Family homes because Grand Terrace is all about those homes. However, that idea doesn't work anymore. The Senior Housing project.is a very common project that is built because usually there is not much resistance to senior housing. A lot of big Redevelopment Agencies use their money on senior projects. Commissioner McNaboe: In general, having the Redevelopment Agency does that make the City subject to any other regulations for, let's say, the amount of housing that we need to have or any other kinds of regulations that a city that didn't have a Redevelopment Agency wouldn't be subject to. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: There is no change because you have a Redevelopment Agency in terms of the amount of housing you need to produce. The Regional Housing Needs Assessment is the same whether you have a Redevelopment Agency or not. The one thing that a Redevelopment does it gives you money to do projects. Realistically, with out a Redevelopment Agency, this community wouldn't fund housing related projects because we couldn't afford it. The Redevelopment Agency is the sole source of money for that. - 7 - Redevelopment law has changed in the time that we have had it; they have really tried to tighten up the laws on the use of redevelopment funds. What I showed you originally is pure redevelopment and it makes some sense. Over time people have used redevelopment in ways that it wasn't designed for. Redevelopment was not designed to build public buildings but so many agencies built public buildings that currently today it is against the law to build a public building with Redevelopment Agency funds. There are no more City Hall's being built because the state identified that is wasn't appropriate. At the time we built it,it was an allowable thing. Chair Wilson: Are you willing to entertain a few questions from the audience. PATRICIA FARLEY 12513 Michigan Street All of the documents that I have read, clearly state that in having the Redevelopment Agency it causes the City to have to provide a certain amount of a certain kind of housing. I don't know why you are telling the staff anything other than that. It isn't what I have read and what others have read. We have looked into this housing quite a bit. As far as I know it is very incorrect information. Chair Wilson: I am interested in the specifics. -Do you Have time to get into them? Are we talking about the difference? Patricia Farley: There are percentages that they have to do that have to be moderate or low. In all of the documents, and I don't have them here, this is something that we have looking at for several years and going to the agencies. That forces us to have to build the stuff that we wouldn't have to build if we didn't have the Redevelopment Agency. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: You are referring to the regulations regarding the use of the 20% set aside. We are required to use 20% of our money for housing related uses. I am sure that is the section that you are talking about. We chose what we use that money on. If you think that by us rehabilitating houses and putting them on the market is an inappropriate way or to build the Senior Project, there is not one thing nor can you name one thing that we have built under the Redevelopment Agency that was mandated by the agency law that we wouldn't have done otherwise. Chair Wilson: You mean would have been constituted illegal under? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: Not illegal. What has the Redevelopment Agency done? You are saying that we are mandated to do housing activity. What have we done that specifically we shouldn't have done if we didn't have a Redevelopment Agency? Patricia Farley: One of the things is that the Redevelopment Agency is buying property and then changing the zoning and doing multi units in there to use towards complying with the law and it is changing neighborhoods. When this higher density zoning that you want to put in, you told us publicly, even though I said I have seen it proposed in three places in the City so far,you said no the senior housing was the only one. - 8 - On Michigan Street there was a rehab house and my cousin and his father painted and did work in that house and it was weird inside but it was good as far as being up kept. The City went in there and tore it down. For ten years that has been a vacant lot. I see things like that as really damaging Michigan Avenue. Now we have the water company going in on a residential property and the City has helped in undermining these areas like that. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: That is not the Redevelopment Agency. The one Michigan property that is true. We bought that property ten years ago and that property was horrible. We were going to try and acquire the adjacent parcels and develop a project but the City Council did not want to do that. Patricia Farley: It may have been a weird house but it was in good condition. Thomas Schwab, City Manager: By us tearing down what we considered a dilapidated house on Michigan, is something we did with the Redevelopment Agency that we wouldn't have done if it wasn't there I would disagree. That house was blight and now it's gone. If you look at the other 44 houses that we have done those were all horrible houses and we have before and after pictures of every one of them. We wouldn't have been able to do that if we didn't have a Redevelopment Agency. Patricia Farley: I would have liked to see that maintained as a residential. The City is helping to undermine the homes there and put in other stuff like the water company. Chair Wilson: Do we have any other questions or comments? We will move to item 2. 2. SUBJECT: General Plan Update Workshop #4 (Land Use and Circulation Designations) Gary L. Koontz, Director: This is our 0' workshop in our General Plan Update. The workshop #3 has been continued for next month. In this workshop we are looking at the Land Use Map and Circulation Element Map. I would like to review the current land use designations with the Commission. I would like to include any new designations or modifications of any current designations and evaluate the need to modify any specific parcel designations in selected areas of the City or anywhere the Commission or the public would like to discuss. This is our current General Plan and as you can see the majority of the City is in the low-density residential single family neighborhoods. We have the commercial core area along Barton Road and the Freeway. We have Industrial down by the old lumber yards and power plant and below the ridge on Vivienda. We have Multi-Family or Medium Density Residential for apartment type areas. We have Open Space on Blue Mountain. We have the Hillside Low-Density on the northern part of Blue Mountain. Lastly,we have a variety of Public Uses like parks and schools. t - 9 - There are currently three of our Residential Designations: 1. Hillside Low-Density Residential (0-1 du/acre) these are the lower hills on the north side of Blue Mountain. In this designation it requires a Specific Plan because of the constraints in the area. 2. Low-Density Residential (0-5 du/acre) 7,200 sq. ft. lots. These are most of the existing single family residential subdivisions. 3. Medium-Density Residential (6-12 du/acre) There are three findings that if made by the Commission and/or City Council, the density could increase to 15 du/acre (information included in Staff Report). 1. Approval of the project at a higher density will achieve other policies as detailed in the General Plan which will benefit the community as a whole (such as dedication and/or substantial participation in the development of public facilities). 2. The existing infrastructure, including the surrounding roadway network can adequately support the increase level of development. It does allow up to 15 du/acre. To the best of my knowledge there haven't been very many projects that have achieved that incentive. The only one that I have been involved with was a proposed apartment project over on Reed and DeBerry. He asked for a higher density but there were questions at the public hearing on what really constituted those kinds of incentives. Throughout this process I would like to talk to.you about whether or-not we should have the Incentive Package. If so I would like to see it refined further so that we can say that it qualifies and if we present it to you we can base it on what you have said was an incentive package. Are there any comments or discussion about existing residential designations or any modifications? Vice Chair Addington: I have been questioning the Low-Density. Are the 5 units per acre to 8,000 sq. ft. lots? Gary L. Koontz, Director: When you really get into the average, it is based on the net acreage left. Like most cities or counties you never get to 5 units per acre because when you take out the streets and dedications you usually come to a density of 4.2 du/acre. Commissioner Comstock: We had discussed in prior meetings regarding the hill side and doing some redefining of the hillside district. Is that taking into account this current hillside Low-Density Residential regulation? Gary L. Koontz, Director: We have two different things, we have the location of the designation, which I want to talk about in a moment, and then we have the real definition of the designation itself. If there is a desire to change or increase any of the qualification requirements of this designation then we definitely want to add them into the policy concerning the Low Density Hillside stuff. - 10 - Chair Wilson: I have a question regarding the over all. Aren't there circumstances throughout the city where you have some kind of obstruction or an odd shaped parcel where it creates a condition where you may have to do some special construction to accommodate those things? How does that play in our overall zoning circumstance? Gary L. Koontz, Director: We are talking about the Land Use Element instead of the Zoning Code itself. In the Land Use Element, one of the things we may want to talk about is density transfers. That is one of the issues associated with the hillside. We want hillside grading requirements and to be very selective on where those lots are to be located in more of a clustered type of development. We have talked about promoting cluster development in sensitive areas so that we are using the areas that are really developable and protecting the areas that we need to protect for scenic or environmental reasons that we have got. Chair Wilson: You brought up an interesting point and I think there are a couple of folks that are on this panel that are familiar with density transfers. However,when you take an instrument like that and use it in a high pressure area like a hillside condition you have to be careful on how you use that tool. For example say you have a golf course scenario and there not using there highest density that they could use in that particular zoning in that area, then a negotiation could take place with a land owner and they could exchange density transfers for an incentive. That density could then be applied to the adjacent parcel. If you own a sensitive are like a hillside you could still do that if there weren't stops put in place with at Land Use that would prevent that circumstance with specialized areas. This is something that we have to consider while we further refine what we are doing here. I look to you Gary to give us a little bit of advice because there are obviously places where density transfers are a plus and other places where it could be a negative. Gary L. Koontz, Director: That was a good comment. We will do some research in some other cities to see how they have handled it and we will incorporate some language to protect or regulate when and where it can be used. Chair Wilson: There are also trade offs that are to-be considered as density transfers. If you have a project that is right on the edge of a Low-Density Residential to begin with and you use a tool like a Density Transfer and there isn't any kind of amenity that is incorporated with that, now you have a bunch of people living on top of each other without any way to relieve that recreational need. The City could stand to lose some substantial resources in that kind of circumstance. This is really something to think about. Gary L,� Koontz, Director: Any time a density transfer would be considered it would definitely require a Specific Plan to be heard by the Commission and the City Council to make sure there are enough safe guards and provisions to protect against things of that sort. We will take a look at a couple of other cities that have done these things and get some verbiage for you. Chair Wilson: On the Agenda are we talking about certain areas or spotlight areas? - 11 - r' Gary L. Koontz, Director: What I would like to do is get through the discussion of the designations themselves and then we will look at individual geographic areas once you have agreed on what these should generally look like. What we would propose is: • Medium High Density Residential (12-20 du/ac) — To be used only with affordable senior housing projects — Requires a Specific Plan — Previously approved for the Blue Mountain Senior Villas site This was approved by your Commission a year or so ago as part of the Blue Mountain Villas Specific Plan. At that time we had proposed it to be used only for affordable Senior Housing Projects, we would require a Specific Plan and we would specifically ask that you apply it to the Blue Mountain Senior Villas site. We are not asking you to add it to any other piece of land. We just want it available and if someone does come in with a proposed senior project, they would have to file a Specific Plan and General Plan Amendment that would all be heard by your Commission and City Council; and if it is a qualified project that you support you can use the district. If it is something that isn't going to fly, you have the right to reject it. "We would like you to consider this as being a new designation. Vice Chair Addington: What other land in town do we have that could be used for a senior housing? 1 Gary L. Koontz, Director: Not much and I am not sure that there are any but if someone comes in and tries to propose something,they can apply and you don't have to approve it. Chair Wilson: Here is my thought on the subject, if we already made a ruling in relation to this so far as a Medium High-Density Residential Circumstance on what was proposed as the Blue Mountain Villas,it would seem advisable that we follow what we already have done. If we are going to apply that kind of label this would be the place where we would do that. Now, whether or not the project actually goes forward, remains to be seen. That would seem to be the appropriate designation. Do you have any other comments? Commissioner Comstock: I do see wisdom in outlining that in the General Plan. Chair Wilson: Do we have a consensus? Commissioners: Yes Chair Wilson: There seems to be a consensus. _ Gary L. Koontz,Director: Do you want to open this up for public comment? t - 12 - Chair Wilson: Yes this is a real sensitive issue so we would like to open it to public comments. JEFFREY MCCONNELL 21758 Walnut Avenue Is the commission presently open to what is coming in the near future in regards to Senior Citizens and housing? The baby boomers start becoming age sixty-two (62) in 2008 this will only increase. Does this commission acknowledge the fact that there will be many more seniors that will need affordable housing in the next thirty (30) years? Chair Wilson: I agree with the fact that there are going to be many more seniors there is a lump that is going through the snake right now,I am one of those guys. Jeffrey McConnell: There are a lot of us that want to stay in Grand Terrace and that was one of my points. The other point I have is that it would increase the population. The homes that they would vacate would be occupied by someone else coming in. How does all these zoning designations influence? Gary L. Koontz,Director: That we have to use as part of the General Plan Chair Wilson: Weren't those revised? Gary L. Koontz,Director: They get revised constantly. Jeffrey McConnell: Are we in pressure financially wise to constantly increase our population over the years? Chair Wilson: I do know that we have had some discussion regarding this issue and that the population estimates were forecasted ridiculously over estimated. There has been some discussion with SCAG and I think we have revised those numbers to a realistic estimate. Jeffrey McConnell: There are several more meetings coming up regarding the Amendment of The General Plan and tonight's topic is zoning right? Gary L. Koontz,Director: No it is Land Use. Jeffrey McConnell: Could you briefly go over what the upcoming meeting topics are going to be so we don't have to waste your time with topics that are going to be discussed next month? Chair Wilson: At this point we are doing Land Use and Circulation as a topic of tonight's discussion. Gary L. Koontz,Director: Over the course of the months we will be talking about everyone of the elements. Once we do that we will talk about them again. Commissioner Phelps: Is there a way we can get it published through the Blue Mountain Outlook on what subjects are going to be in what month so that the public has a better chance of _ } coming down and participating? - 13 - Gary L. Koontz, Director: That is a little difficult. I can do it month by month but having a long term schedule, since I was planning on going through a couple of elements two weeks ago and we postponed the meeting, some of these discussions go on and we don't get through the entire agenda in one meeting. Chair Wilson: Tom, as far as our long range and short ranged plans on this kind of a density situation;is there ... We are looking at this General Plan at this point are there any forecast as far as other alternate locations in a redevelopment kind of scheme that might make it good to consider an area for a Senior Housing Project like where it is under utilized? Thomas Schwab, City Manager: I would think that there are probably other six (6) acre sites that could be considered. I think that the current site is being primarily considered because we own it. In order to find another site, it would require us to purchase it and then figure out how to amortize that into the cost of the project and still try to keep it affordable. We haven't really studied anywhere else projects like that could go. I wouldn't venture to say that there weren't other places that it could go. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Please bear in mind that this is a twenty five to thirty (25-30) year long range plan. What is available and what is needed twenty five (25) years from now and the possible locations may be totally different from what we see today. Chair Wilson: That is why we do updates. JANESE MAKSHANOFF 21816 Vivienda Avenue I have a question and it was from a couple meetings ago and someone requested a certain amount of houses they wanted to put on a small lot on Vivienda. Does this Medium Density affect that? You guys told them that was way too many houses for that area. Chair Wilson: If I remember right, I believe that the person that was at the podium was the person who bought the property and was the applicant. He was seeking a change and seeking an allowance to go greater than the density that was allowed under the zoning. We had an overlay district that said you can only go so far. Gary L. Koontz, Director: The zoning was R2 and it was consistent with the R2 density. It didn't fit the site. Chair Wilson: We looked at it considering the adjacent neighborhood. If I remember my comments said something to the fact that there was a reason why there was a specific target for the density in this area and the applicant was trying to exceed it. We asked him to go back to the staff and rework the plan because it wasn't in the character of the neighborhood. Janese Makshanoff: I don't come to all the meetings but about eight or nine years ago there was - a moratorium on the size of the lot that a new construction had to be on. - 14- Chair Wilson: I have been here for 15 years and I don't remember an actual moratorium per say. Staff do you have any knowledge? Gary L. Koontz, Director: No I have only been here for 5 years. John Lampe,Associate Planner: No. I have been here for 8 years Thomas Schwab, City Manager: I am not familiar on any moratorium on lot size, our lot size minimums have always been 7,200 sq. ft. in the Low-Density Residential zone. Janese Makshanoff: Maybe that is what I am confused about. Commissioner Comstock: Chairman, later in our packet we are going to be discussing the zoning in that area. Some are Medium density and duplexes and that is one of the issues that we are discussing later if I am not mistaken. Chair Wilson: We can get a little more site specific. Janese Makshanoff. That is right above me but I am down below... Commissioner Comstock: Stay and a little later in this meeting we will be discussing it. ANNE WADE HORNSBY 22656 Brentwood Street I have mentioned in other City Council meetings that my concern for the Blue Mountain Senior Villas and by the way I would be happy to buy an acre or two of that lot if you wanted to sell it and put the Senior Villas somewhere else. I think that 120 and that's a 6 acre parcel and 4 will be the buildings, part will be a passive park and part a Senior Center so 4 divided into 120 equals 30 units per acre. That is pretty High-Density. We have talked a lot about this and right now I don't know if a Specific Plan has been okayed because the EIR hasn't been done. I am asking along with this gentleman if there is possibly another place to put it. We have been talking about whether or not the High Density goes.along with the Low Density housing that is in existence now. That is a concern that not just I have but a lot of the people on Brentwood have had. What is happening is an apartment like environment is being put in the center of a Low Density Residential area. We have brought up the fact that it is not the zoning that was originally intended for that are. If there is a place that you guys could find that would be more amenable to seniors and by the way I am one too, I realize that if I'stay in Grand Terrace,it would be great to have a senior area but not where you have it. That is a Low Density area and there are many people concerned but they don't get as active as I do. If there is a place or another 6 acre parcel, that would be more amenable and closer to town I would like for you to still think about it. As far as the designation it is more than 20 units per acre in an area that is absolutely low as oppose to higher density. There is a lot next to the Highland - 15 - Apartments and there is a lot next to them. It is a problem and it's your problem but if you can think about it and come up with alternate ideas it would be nice to hear. PATRICIA FARLEY 12513 Michigan Street This is what I am concerned about, the City is trying to control an area that was not meant to have that kind of high density and because the City went and bought this property and tore down houses they are controlling and forcing that area to take something like a bunch of apartments and put them where it wasn't meant to be. This is the problem that I have with the Redevelopment Agency doing that kind of thing. I don't want a high density there. If you allow this to be something that they can just periodically put in all of us are going to see this coming right in the middle that are suppose to be low density. We don't want a bunch of this all over the City. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Let us continue. Gary L. Koontz,Director: The other Non-Residential designations that we currently have are: • General Commercial • Office Commercial • Industrial • Industrial-Floodplain • Public • Hillside Open Space • Industrial- Floodplain The Industrial — Floodplain area is to the northwest part of the town down in the low lands between the two railroad tracks at the end of Terrace Avenue; Public accounts for all the parks and schools in town;Hillside Open Space is the side of Blue Mountain to the top. Vice Chair Addington: When we include schools does it include our private school? Gary L. Koontz, Director: No. As you can see on the map it covers the 2 elementary schools, the middle school, Rollins Park, Pico Park, undeveloped land that the City owns and a piece across the street on the corner that is an Edison easement that the City owns and was created when the roads were realigned many years ago. Things.that I want to do on the map is identify all of the open space including all of the open space that we have with all the park land the strip parks along the aqueduct and TJ Austin park that need to be identified as open space. If it is a park let us call it a park. We have the new high school coming in and we need to identify it accordingly. There is one interesting thing we don't have City Hall as a public use and we should probably designate it as a public use. We need to look at everything that is public and make it purely public. - 16 - Chair Wilson: Yes, make it purely public. Technically we were just looking at Office Commercial space over the Seventh Day Adventist Church complex and how interesting that is because should we be considering something that is not a Public use but is a different designation than Office Commercial. Gary L. Koontz, Director: I have to step into the zoning even though I am trying to avoid it. The Zoning Code requires that a church like that be in a Residential area. Chair Wilson: You are in an interesting position. Gary L. Koontz,Director: How would you like to address that issue as a Commissioner? Chair Wilson: You are right next to a Residential area so it is a quasi buffer to a Residential area. Vice Chair Addington: Following up on that the Catholic Church in town sits in the Low Density residential area. Without jumping into the zoning it seems that we have two religious uses in two different land uses. Should we consider.making that consistent also? Gary L. Koontz, Director: What that means is that anyone who came in and proposed a church anywhere in town would have to do a General Plan Amendment. We could take schools and churches and call them institutional or something like that however, if someone wanted to come in and wanted to propose a church on a couple of acres of residential they would have to do a General Plan Amendment as well as everything else. Right now under the residential zone requirements you can do a church with a Conditional Use Permit (CUP). Chair Wilson: Some of these are grandfathered in to begin with. Realistically why wouldn't we have an institutional? We could have uses that are allowed under the Institutional and then CUP uses and so on. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Let me do some research on some of the other and take a look at what they have done with churches. Commissioner Comstock: As a Pastor looking at an Institutional use designation for a church,if I were looking to purchase a parcel that is primarily Residential, are you saying I would have to go get a zoning change on that parcel to be able to put a church use on it? Gary L. Koontz, Director: You would have to create a new zoning that would allow it and then do a General Plan Amendment to call it Institutional. Commissioner Comstock: I am not in favor of that. Right now it is a whole lot easier the way that the zoning regulations are written regarding church use. We can go into a Commercial. Vice Chair Addington: I was looking at this as being consistent because this Land Use Map that we are looking at is probably from the inception of the City. Gary L. Koontz, Director: There have been some minor modifications from what I understand; however, nothing significant. - 17 Vice Chair Addington: I was looking at it for consistency since we are approaching about 90% build out. Commissioner Comstock: I would be in favor of moving the Seventh Day Adventist Church Office designation back to Residential. Gary L. Koontz, Director: You are now taking specific uses like that but if you look at the surrounding uses you can take this and call it residential you have got Multi-Family Residential and Office and General Commercial and you are creating this pocket that somehow we have to evaluate it as being future Residential use sometime in the future. Chair Wilson: It's not compatible with the Barton Road Specific Plan. Commissioner Comstock: If I could simplify this, I am not in favor of making it harder on churches to be able to set up on a piece of property and to go through zoning changes and having to come before governmental bodies. I am not in favor of that because I think that churches are a benefit to the community. I think we need to do whatever we can do to encourage religious activity. Gary L. Koontz, Director: I have two comments, 1) anytime you deal with a church you are dealing with certain federal opinions on the church and state and how far the state can get into determining where a church can be. We talked to our city attorney about what to do with churches. 2) Maybe instead of dealing with churches at this level we should look at the zoning area and address where churches can go in the zoning ordinance. Right now it says only in Residential areas. You �\ may want to talk about changing that and spreading it out and putting certain requirements that it can go in a Commercial or Office are with provisions. Chair Wilson: That type is all over Orange County. Commissioner Comstock: Actually they are in most places in California. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Dealing with churches it can get very sensitive because of the Church and State issue. Chair Wilson: That is a discussion for a future time. I think the point is made that we need consistency. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Of these other uses other than Residential,what we would like for you to consider is adding one additional designation to it and that would be a Mixed Use designation. It is becoming more and more common that you are mixing uses that are compatible. As we go through the future whether it's now or10-15 years from now, the use of land that we have is going to be more important that it is used to the highest and best use. I suggest that we put together a designation that applies to projects that can go with any sort of mix of Residential, Commercial, Office or Industrial uses. Any of these designated areas would definitely require a Specific Plan. We want to see how the uses play out, what the percentages are and how they relate to each other. What I would like to do is apply this to our Redevelopment area (freeway area that used to be the Outdoor Adventures Center). It is looking more and more that is going to be a mix of a couple of uses. We are expecting something come in on that as an evolved - 18 - project pretty soon. We have a developer working on that and a Mixed Use development is probably what is going to be proposed in that area. Chair Wilson:. What would prevent us from trying to applying the same kind of rational that is governed by the Barton Road Specific Plan which has been used a lot? Gary L. Koontz, Director: If you wanted to designate the entire corridor. You could even do Residential because it is mixed use. Chair Wilson: What we are looking at folks, is a corridor of General Commercial and that is what we are trying to determine for the immediate future. What is being proposed is a Mixed Use Land use designation that would allow for a more flexible use in those areas rather than just being held to a General Commercial circumstance. Theoretically you could build some housing next to or underneath commercial. On good parallel would be something that you would see in Solvang where they have a Hotel over a Commercial Use or some other type of living quarters where the circumstance is a little more intense in the center of town. Vice Chair Addington: On the mix use that you are proposing,being in development I am seeing a lot more of the mixed use out there, are you proposing something that would give us greater flexibility and reviewing and regulating it. Is that the reason why you are bringing it to us? Gary L. Koontz, Director: It is giving us the opportunity to entertain different development styles. The real development style of the future is Mixed Use. Vice Chair Addington: I would agree with you because land is becoming scarce and so they are trying to combine the mix uses and the new planning theme now is instead of living here and commuting to Orange County it is living here and you walk down stairs or down the block and now you are at your recreational uses,grocery store,work and where ever you want to be. Gary L. Koontz,Director: It is as much related to transportation issues trying to get people off the road and to keep them in their neighborhood so that they can live, work, play and shop within a short distance. That is the way to go instead of straight suburbia. Vice Chair Addington: Looking at the Mix Use,if the Commission was to consider it, they would have to look at the zoning also and put in the right regulations on the zoning,right? Gary L. Koontz, Director: What I propose is to have some kind of SP Zone Overlay that would want to see along with Mixed Use is some sort of Specific Plan or something that really explained what you were doing. A lot of cities and counties on projects that are mixed use will slap an SP zone on it and whatever the Specific Plan (SP) says is the zoning. It will still go through the whole process but it allows flexibility in how this is going to be laid out and played together. Vice Chair Addington: Does our current Land Use Map here allow for any Mixed Use? Are we proposing a brand new designation? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Right now the existing designations, the best I can read them, don't allow for a Mixed Use type development. It is very Residential,Commercial and Industrial specific. - 19 - Vice Chair Addington: Those were the traditional ways of doing it? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Back in the 1980's and early 1990's that was the way it worked. Now the new trends with development the Mixed Use is becoming more prevalent and you are seeing a lot more designations or policies that allow that kind of use in the newer General Plans. The closest thing that we get to a Mixed Use would be the two areas where you have the CM Zone where you have Commercial/Manufacturing. Other than that it says residential or it doesn't say residential. For example, take our General Plan now and do a Commercial Project on Barton with Condominium's on top of it you couldn't do,you would have to create a new designation for it. Chair Wilson: Do any of the Commissioners have any questions? Commissioner Phelps: Would the Mixed Use areas allow for something like the Senior Villas, density, to be built in that area as well? Gary L. Koontz, Director: In terms of density that would be allowed that is something that we would continue to work on as part of this. We would put them in the policies for Mixed Use and provide provisions and how they would abide by that, how to address and what would be allowed. You can put in there any combination of existing designations and densities. We would probably mention that you couldn't exceed the other density and if you wanted to add a medium of 12/acre on top of Commercial site you couldn't go over that maximum density. You would still have to abide by the underlining densities of the General Plan. Commissioner Phelps: I am picturing something like the Senior Villas where you can walk down to the possible lakes and that would be a great place for the seniors to enjoy. I wanted to make sure that it is a possibility in the later plans. Gary L. Koontz, Director: We can write that in. I need to work on some verbiage on that and I will get back to you. Chair Wilson: In a nutshell we are talking about further definitions would further constitute the use of it but we are looking at opening up the door for a Mixed Use and then we would later define what that Mixed Use means. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Yes. Tonight we are opening the door on things and to see what you want us to entertain and then we will come back with more definitive language that we would discuss and tweak as necessary to make sure that everyone is comfortable with it. JEFFERY MCCONNELL 21758 Walnut Avenue I only have one concern that in your designation writings to include a covenant so that the units above stores do not turn into trashy rentals and that they are utilized by the people who work down below or something that that affect. You have to remember as far as walking you can walk from one side of town to the other in 20 minutes here in Grand Terrace. - 20 - _ If it is for the benefit of the person working below then there should be a covenant that that person above should be working below as oppose to turning into a rental. Chair Wilson: You are getting into some pretty specialized conditions there. PATRICIA FARLEY 12513 Michigan Street I want to point out again that we have in a Residential area the City has allowed a Business in a Residential area mixing something that is not suppose to be mixed. This is what is not being protected. People should be able to have their homes in a Residential area and not have somebody build something like that next to them or the City come in and right in the middle of it put in their Mixed Use. That opens the flood gates to put in anything they want. I don't think that is right. Vice Chair Addington: Patricia,what business are you referring to? Patricia Farley: The water company on Michigan right next to Laura Austin's house. That is Residential and they have Commercial business and a whole bunch of stuff stored behind it if you look right there, where the water company used to be plus trucks. This is in the middle of a place where it is supposed to be Residential. It is totally inappropriate and the City is violating that. ANNE WADE HORNSBY 22656 Brentwood Street From my own personal point of view and I have talked at other meetings, I think what you are thinking about for Mixed Use is great in a sense that it is in an area that has an eyesore. When you were talking about the codes and covenant that you are going to have to have those if you are allowing businesses to operate under residences. But, when you are talking about the wave of the future I have been in Brea and in San Bernardino Victoria Gardens where there are places all over which are not homes on top of businesses but condos and Long Beach is a good example,right next to shopping areas. I personally think it is a great idea because you are then giving people access that they really have to go to and saving them to have to get in a car to go there. I personally think that particular stretch would lend itself to that rather than some industrial complex, if you can't get it in there, on a scale commensurate to Grand Terrace. We don't have to have a Macy's with Condos next to it but the kind of stores that would be indicated in a City this size with people that would rather live in slightly Higher Density that don't want to have to keep up a home and that wouldn't mind living in a condo. What I am saying is that it isn't such a bad idea. I think it is the wave of the future in regards to thinking 20-25 years from now. I think you are going to see a lot more Mixed Use than a lot less isolated areas. Chair Wilson: Let us bring it back to the Commission. Here is one thing that I think about this; I would be hesitant at this point in our discussion to apply this mixed use to a particular location. I do support the concept of creating a mixed use designation. r Do we have any other comments from the Commissioners? - 21 - Vice Chair Addington: If we don't have a Land Use shown on the map that would be approved by the Planning Commission and or Council then how do we designate it? Gary L. Koontz,Director: We can create a designation but not specifically identify a parcel. Vice Chair Addington: So they would have to go through a General Plan Amendment to change the designation later? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Correct. Chair Wilson: What I am saying is at this point in the discussion. "We have only just begun." Vice Chair Addington: Just trigger a thought to how do you have a designation but not show it on the map. Thank you. Gary L. Koontz, Director: I have been doing a lot of reading of other General Plans and there are quite a few of them that have designations and when you look at the map they are not there physically but they are there if you need them. Commissioner Comstock: I have visions of Santa Ana and Long Beach when we talk about mixed use. If I wanted to live in Santa Ana or Long Beach I would be down there. The reason I live here is because we have some space between things. I am not in favor of a mixed use overlay on particular parcels. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Again, mixed use can be up, down or sideways. It doesn't have to be stacking on top each other. It could be one parcel of land with a variety of uses on it. Commissioner Comstock: Are we increasing density usage of the parcels? Chair Wilson: Not necessarily,which that is why we can control that with finer definitions. For example at a point when we talked about General Plan on the General Plan Task Force in the mid 1990's we talked about the concept of what would we do if we had a wish list on the Barton Road area near the Town Center? We said would it be possible to mix some residential circumstances with some light commercial where you could walk to a store. Everyone is always talking about the "mouse house" concept where everyone wants to live in a village. Whether that is commercially feasible that would be another concept that you could do in a mixed use. It does open the door for other things. Commissioner Comstock: I am not in favor of it and that is my opinion. Chair Wilson: Can we get an idea from the rest of the Commissioners; I know Mr. Comstock is not in favor. Vice Chair Addington: I have seen this work on other projects in other areas and if you do it right it is a nice concept. A local one that I can say has worked would be the Victoria Gardens. That was done right and like Gary said, this one went horizontal. - 22- I would be in favor of the mixed use but I would like enough language in our Land Use Element and in our Zoning Ordinance where you could have something that the community would like. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Just stating in the policy that you are required to do a Specific Plan that would have to be heard by your group and the City Council would work. If someone presents something that you don't like,you can recommend denial. Commissioner McNaboe: I think where Commercial is designated in the City is in walking distance for Residential. It is not a very big City and when I think of Mined Use being used, I see it as more of a tool for a large city that is trying to attract residents to an area where they want more life and more things going on in a downtown area. If Grand Terrace was more pedestrian friendly,I think the City would become a mixed use designation regardless. Chair Wilson: By the nature of the animal. Gary L. Koontz,Director: Again,please remember we are looking twenty five (25) years out. Commissioner Phelps: I am in favor of it. In the right areas I think that it could be a very good thing. Chair Wilson: I think that we are looking at a 3-3 'A year and you have enough information to work form. I think the Specific Plan has a lot to do with the control. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Let me see if I can come up with verbiage on this that would provide lots of regulations and criteria for you to work it. Chair Wilson: Point well taken Darcy, in regards to whether or not,this fits within our community. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Let us get into site specific stuff. There are four areas that I would like to have you talk about and then open it up to any other ideas that the Commission or the General Public has. • Flood Plain Industrial Area • Medium Density Residential- Grand Terrace Rd @ Vivienda • Blue Mountain- South • Blue Mountain-North Starting with the first area I want you to consider is the area up here. Flood Plain Industrial Area Right now it is designated for Industrial. You have the river, the 100 year flood hazard, the residential community,rail roads on both sides and La Cadena.Access is not that great and one issue is that now that we have gotten rid of a lot of the area by the high school we don't have a lot of l " industrial property left. We do need to.have a jobs/housing balance and industrial helps us to do that. We have had people discuss wanting an agricultural overlay. Is part of this more appropriate - 23 for residential since we have that community here even though we have the warehousing where �. ' Stater Bro's is currently residing there? It is an interesting area that I would like you to at least consider and talk about. Is the existing designation appropriate, should we do something with it, something different,keep it the same? Chair Wilson: What is Colton's designation for down on that side? Gary L. Koontz, Director: I believe that area is designated for Industrial. You have the landfill road in the back and this is kind of an area that is segregated. I believe that it is Industrial designated as well. The area over here you have the Mobile Home Park in this area, you have Washington Street that winds around this is more the higher density residential. What you are dealing with is the rigid line along here, the railroad tracks and the floodplain. It is kind of a mishmash area between the two cities. Vice Chair Addington: Can we take a 1 minute break so that we can take a look on the aerial map to see the topography of this? (Commission takes a 1 minute break to view aerial photo) Gary L. Koontz, Director: Next time I do this I will have an aerial photo in the power point. j Chair Wilson: Because you are subject to a floodplain designation, did you get some recommendations for an alternate? Gary L. Koontz,Director: My personal recommendation is to leave it the way it is. We need the jobs to housing and the constraints you have down there in terms of the power lines and they are a big issue regardless of what you put up there you would still have to deal with the flood hazard. You would have to elevate everything above and protect any sort of structure that goes in down there. You have the issues that we are dealing with concerning Terrace Avenue and the access restraints we are dealing with on that. There are some existing residences down there that at this point, because of this designation, are preexisting non-conforming. We may want to talk about something with that in the Zoning Ordinance. We have had some residents in the past coming to us and wanting to expand there house but they can't because it is in an industrial area. They keep horses down there which is fine because no one has complained about it. If you look at the ordinance and the designation in detail if they take a horse off they couldn't put the horse back on. Chair Wilson: I wouldn't have a problem entertaining an Agriculture overlay in an area like that because it is similar on what goes on down near the 605 freeway. When you have a bunch of wires - overhead they do lease the stuff out. I am not exactly sure how that is tied with Industrial base. t ' Does any one else have any other comments? - 24- Commissioner Phelps: I am in favor of Ag overlay and let them keep there horses until it actually turns into something other than what it is right now. In terms of it becoming industrial it will take a while. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Let me see I can put together some interim policies. During the transition of this area from Rural Residential and Agriculture to Industrial the following things can occur and see what we can do to let those people live there lives if that is what they want to do for the time being. Chair Wilson: We did make a point that the 20/20 plan that Colton is doing across the way is compatible with what we are doing? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Correct. Do you want to open it up to the public? Chair Wilson: Does anyone in the public want to talk about that particular one? JEFFREY MCCONNELL 21758 Walnut Avenue I live in the residential pocket that is surrounded by it. The area that I want to talk about is not that area but the lower floodplain area and how that was purchased by Mr. Hodgson, Warner Hodgson as well as the x amount of acres on the other side of La Cadena and now both parcels are for sale. I don't know why they are for sale. He had spent a lot of money bringing this in front of you during the Manhole Builders fight. He proposed ideas for opening up for a wider access down Terrace. I hope you have all driven underneath the tressels over there and notice that there are restrictions there too. I have had many discussions with Warner during that time and he also looked at opening up and doing a grade crossing towards Washington towards Colton by the Mobile Home Park. He wanted to intentionally turn that into a large manufacturing with heavy trucks. It is his forte and he has done a lot of it over San Bernardino in various parts. He has done a good job at it. Why is he selling this? I have a 6 acre parcel in escrow up against the Santa Ana wash and it has been in and out of escrow and I think it is going to close but I have personally experienced the nightmares that they have gone through with the depth of the footings, kangaroo rat problems and everything having to do with Industrial parcel development that they want to do down there. That may be part of the reason why including putting footings 20 ft. in the ground and the closer you get to those levy's the more nightmare you have as far as you structural integrity and having to do with the wash. - 25 - That area is down there is going to be continuous problems especially if it is Industrial mainly with access whether it's Manhole Builders or heavy trucks. You might want to consider and I think you just mention a possible alternative and definitely put an Agricultural Overlay over there. Chair Wilson: Gary, one thing I want is a flood pattern. One thing I don't see in our General Plan Land Use map is an RE designation; estate units. Is the Hillside Low Density meant to do that? Gary L. Koontz, Director: That is about as close as we got. When you are looking at areas of the town that could be used as Residential Estate type development there aren't a whole lot of areas left. Chair Wilson: Because if you wanted to make an estate where there are wires hanging all over it you can probably do that there. I was just curious. Gary L. Koontz, Director: The other side of it is one thing to consider and it's probably a legal issue more than anything, down zoning or down designating an area from Industrial to Rural Residential, could end up in some real interesting legal challenges. I am not an attorney but I have seen it in the past. The owner cannot come in and say "I can't make this thing work", he always has the right to come in and ask for a Rural Residential type designation and sell it off as estate ranches. Commissioner Comstock: While we are thinking out of the box, maybe a Park Use might be appropriate for a portion of that property. Chair Wilson: It is something to look at. Gary L. Koontz, Director: One thing to consider, and we will get into to when we are in Open Space & Conservation, is there is the Santa Ana River bike lane that goes along the river and Mr. Hodgson has negotiated with the staff but there is now a temporary access point getting from Terrace Avenue into the bikeway. As we talked about last time anything that ever happens to this piece we would absolutely require some permanent access or dedication to make sure that we always have access to that park. Making part of that a park is always an option,parks make really good uses in floodplain's. Chair Wilson: They are also good retention bases. JANESE MAKSHANOFF 21816 Vivienda Avenue I am one of those little squares in the floodplain. My house is not in the floodpla.in but my horse arena's are. We are kind of getting into an opportunity here with the equestrian trail put in. From what I understand that is going to be one of the accesses and you will have to go to the access to get -. in. The park sounds great but there maybe some other equestrian uses for that property. They are running out of them. - 26 - We moved here from Yorba Linda because we were the only one left in the neighborhood that had a horse that is why we moved out here. As far as the Ag Overlay it was originally an Ag Overlay they changed it to Industrial with and Ag Overlay and we have no idea when the overlay was taken off 10 years ago. As far as all of us that live down there no one ever knew of any meeting or notification that they were taking the Ag Overlay off. I went down and talked with John a lot and it was just gone. I wasn't there anymore and nobody could say when it was taken or why it was taken off. I don't really consider it down sizing when that is what it was originally. The high powered lines, we have so many easements through our property and right of way's. I can't fence off my property because there is an easement. Railroad access road runs right through my property and right up to the other railroad tracks. I guess I could put a gate in there and give' everybody a key cause I can't lock it. My elderly father has come to live with us and I have a very small house. The process I would have to go through to be able to add to my house to accommodate my dad is crazy. It is financially unfeasible for us. To go through the Conditional Use Permit and regular permits and I understand this is the time to ask to put the Ag Overlay be put back on to the property. Chair Wilson: Are you suggesting that you would be interested in seeing a residential designation in that area? Janese Makshanoff: My residence is already there. Chair Wilson: I understand that but a portion of your residence is encumbered by a zoning that is different from your residential. Janese Makshanoff: I am legal Non-Conforming so I can add on 140 sq. ft one time to my property. I could put a closet on. Chair Wilson: Does anybody else in the Commission feel that a Residential Designation would be appropriate in that area? Vice Chair Addington: I have a question on these overlays. On an Ag Overlay, does that just allow for the use of animals or does it go into a change of zoning where now it's also residential and she can add a lot more on to the house? Gary L. Koontz, Director: All of the overlays in the city are zoning overlays. There are no General Plan Designation overlays. The closest thing that you get to a General Plan Overlay is like the Floodplain Industrial but it has a specific requirement. What you would do in this area in the Floodplain/Industrial would write policies that said "Right now it's not industrial, there are interim uses, these interim uses would be permitted under the following procedures and guidelines; they would be able to have animals under a zoning agricultural overlay." If you want to talk about the ability to expand existing residences as an interim use while the are transitions into industrial,we can do those kinds of things. You could then take the policies and we are writing the General Plan on this,then we apply them to a zoning ordinance. I - 27 - The Zoning Ordinance is what implements the General Plan. Right now we are just looking at the - overall picture and then from that we will drill down into the specifics. If you right a policy for this area you will allow existing agricultural uses as an interim use and here are the provisions in which they can operate. They can operate as a standard residential development, they can expand if they want. We need to set up the parameters and then we will implement and change them into the Zoning Ordinance. The Zoning Ordinance, right now says, anything non-conforming, here are the rules if it doesn't conform to the General Plan. Whereas, we can change all of that; that says in an Industrial with an Ag Overlay non-conforming uses are allowable to be expanded and anything else. It is a two step process but we can make it work if that is what you want. Commissioner Comstock: Janese's house has been there before the city was a city and before any of these zoning'regulations were place down there; a flood comes, wind comes and blows the house down or a fire happens, I feel that she should be allowed to rebuild her house and any improvements that she would like make to that because I consider that to be a Grandfathered Clause. They have had use of that property for many years and I think that we should have something in the code that says she should be allowed to do that or even if she wants to add to the house, I think that is something that we should provide for her having been a long time resident there. Looking at that area with the different easements and the power lines, railroad tracks and Industrial area that is being developed around it;I am not in favor of opening that entire area up for a "Master Planned Residential",I don't think that it fits that usage down there. Most of that parcel is sitting in —" a floodplain. Janese Makshanoff: I am going back a ways, but, when the sewers were put in all of us were assessed, and it wasn't just one because it was one family, I was assessed for 5 my neighbor was assessed for 9 and we had to pay those extra ones because that is how many time we could split our property into other lots. I don't understand how that-works now. Chair Wilson: We are talking about the General Plan Land Use Map and then further into a zoning circumstance later but it doesn't have anything to do with sewer uses and things. Janese Makshanoff: I was just trying to bring up the comparison because at the time we had to pay for so many assessments for hookups. Chair Wilson: That is maybe the way that the sewer districts figures it out. It doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about now. Can you guys chat about that later and let's keep going on to the Land Use. Commissioner Phelps: She had mentioned the horses and you had mentioned the easement for the Santa Ana bike area. Will there be a way to allow a horse business to bring up stables and be able to use that area. Janese Makshanoff: It is equestrian,pedestrian and bike path. - 28 - Chair Wilson: Were you questions directed to the person at the podium? Commissioner Phelps: No. Chair Wilson: Let us let staff answer that. Gary L. Koontz, Director: If you wanted to include an allowable use in the Floodplain/Industrial as equestrian oriented uses,let me know. Commissioner Phelps: I think, even if it may never happen, that allowing the possibility for a business to open that they could have horse to take tours along the bike path/lake. It is not that pretty right now and it could be in the future. Vice Chair Addington: Would that be covered under the Ag Overlay? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Again the Ag Overlay is a zoning implementation that implements the land use designation of the General Plan. We can write policies about what is permitted within a Floodplain/Industrial area and we can write into it anything you want to write in. If you want Light Industrial or Equestrian Oriented Uses we can put them it in there. Chair Wilson: Especially in relation to a transition time frame. Gary L. Koontz, Director: We can talk about the proximity of the trail system that the Equestrian Uses could be permitted in this area. Everything is more of a "could" than a "will be". It is a matter of an allowable use subject to zoning, environmental, permitting and the whole nine yards. Chair Wilson: The intention is not to wipe out the goals of the General Plan by zoning. JANET RIDGE 11701 Terrace Avenue I had this property since about 1966 and built my home in 1974 and this was still County. We became a city and then the sewers came through and then the zoning. We were all Agriculture down there and everyone had horses. Some how someone wanted it to be changed into Light Industry and we went to all the meetings and they changed it even though we didn't want it. They said they were going to leave an Agriculture Overlay. on all that property that way we could do what we wanted with the property some how it got taken off and we were never informed if it. We can't do anything with our property anymore. I would like to request that our Agricultural Overlay be put back on that property and even the residential could be in there for ranches. JEFFREY MCCONNELL 21758 Walnut Avenue - Mr. Phelps had a good idea and Gary also had a good point about the legal issues. Considering the multiple zoning to help include the possibility of someone coming in and willing to spend money - 29 -- — and develop it without upsetting Mr. Hodgson. A nursery is another idea. I am not sure that the use is included in Industrial but maybe it should be. We need something to encourage someone to go down there and do something it otherwise it is always going to be a pain. ANNE WADE HORNSBY 22656 Brentwood Street I have been in that area many times over the years. I'm really interested in horse property and I think it would be marvelous to develop that with an Agricultural Overlay. My horses right now are boarded in Riverside and I have to drive there everyday. The nursery idea is fabulous. The nursery's, have done things in Riverside and a lot of people complain, I can't because it gives me a beautiful place to ride my horses. I was a consultant for a property in Mira Loma that was developed into an Equestrian park. The possibility for that place is good because there is direct access to the Santa Ana River and that trial that goes all the way to Malibu. I think that developing that as an Equestrian is a great idea. I will volunteer my help to do that. The nursery idea is fabulous because it will improve the looks of that. Right now it is a dusty old place with a lot of wires. That is a constraint because I have dealt with that in other equestrian areas. Often areas become Equestrian or Bike Trails or Parks because you couldn't live there in case the wires were to fall ' down. The electrical companies are extremely concerned about law suits happening say during a — lightening storm. These are things that I have actually dealt with. Making it into an Equestrian park wouldn't be that hard. Janese asked me if I would buy an acre out there and the answer is no because I don't want to live in places where it is that dusty. It couldn't be dusty if you brought in nurseries and developed the streets or put rock down. You can't build because the ground doesn't support it. It should be designated as Mixed Use for Agricultural, Residential and forget Industrial. AARON HODGSON 405 Arrowhead Road San Bernardino We own property on the Grand Terrace side and the Colton side. I am here to answer any questions about the overlay. We are willing to work with the City on an overlay. We are just concerned about the designation change from Industrial to anything else. We wanted to put some horses and cows on the Colton side but we were told that we were in conflict with the zoning and it was no longer a compatible use. I would be happy to work with Gary and staff on the possibility of an overlay zone as long as the underlined designation didn't change from Manufacturing. Our only concern about any of the overlay zones would be the induction of new residential and that would be conflicting with future industrial uses. - 30- Chair Wilson: Does anyone have questions?No. Okay that is actually what we have been talking _ about predominantly. When you are talking about an overlay zoning it is for an interim type of use and not necessarily that it is going to change the underlined use. Chair Wilson: Do you have enough information from this one in order to go forward? Gary L. Koontz, Director: I am a little confused but I think we can do it. Medium Density Residential- Grand Terrace Rd @ Vivienda This area further to the east at Vivienda and Grand Terrace Road you have a series of different densities you have Grand Terrace Mobile Home Park, Commercial area, Industrial, Large Mobile Home parks and smaller Mobile Home parks and the rest of this area is designated for Medium Density Residential and it is currently zoned R2 and R3. You have a mix of rural residential estate type lots that are over an acre in size and you have some duplexes and triplexes. It is a real mixture of things and in the middle of this you have a recorded 14 unit Condo Map that has been around since the beginning of time. You have a real mix of uses in here and it is a question,if you got the residential pocket in over here and existing residences there, should we leave this .as having the potential to be duplex, triplex, condo or small lot single family. That piece that we talked about a while back was this piece and it was proposed for six units and it was asked to go back and redesign for three. I would ask you to consider a discussion on this area as to should we make it single family, multi family or anything at all? Chair Wilson: Personally I think it is suited for Low Residential designation. Vice Chair Addington: That is what I was considering as well. Commissioner Comstock: What is the maximum unit per acre in that Medium Density? Gary L. Koontz, Director: It is 9 to the acre under the R2 Zone. We have one Medium Density Designation that goes for the R2 and R3 zone. As you can see the big Mobile Home Park is R3 which is an old park and it is over the 12 to the acre that we have now. Our maximum would be 12 at an R3. Right now it is 9 in an R2. You have the existing Mobile Home Park that you would really want to leave that as a Medium Density. The recorded condominium map should also be retained as medium. Commissioner Comstock: My only problem from changing that from Medium to Low Density is that it takes some of the value of the property from the property owners which they may have purchased that property because it was zoned as Medium Density. Chair Wilson: Let them come forward. ,- Commissioner Phelps: That is what we are here for. - 31 - Commissioner Comstock: If we are planning on changing any kind of zoning on the property we should notify the owners so that they could be here to make their views known. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Like I said, we are at the beginning of this. This is you giving me direction and considering change in this area. We have to do a lot of work on it. We have to evaluate which parcels we change and how the overall configuration looks. Do we have conflict between a pocket of higher density or lower density? What is it all going to look like? We then have to do the Environmental Impact Report assessing the change in uses and what the impacts are of those changes. Commissioner Comstock: So it is not going to happen over night? Gary L. Koontz, Director: No, you are just giving me direction on you wanting me to at least consider what is going to happen if we change that. I will need to then come back to you and say "If we change this,here are the impacts". Chair Wilson: I agree with your sense here in that the area is predominantly developed as older rural residential units on large lots with a few duplexes. I do agree with that. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Bare in mind this is a twenty-five (25) year plan. We need to look at what is there today and what maybe there 20-25 years from now. JEFFREY MCCONNEL 21758 Walnut Avenue Y On the same basis of down zoning an area and creating law suits, you might have a similar problem with Mr. Nugyen who was here with that patio home project did mention that it was his retirement project and I know some other property owners that also have purchased and hoped that one day it would be built up. I am in favor of not too high Density but compatible with the area. I would include newly proposed residential designation for Medium High Density for Senior Housing as an overlay or something that you wouldn't have to go through a General Plan Amendment. Chair Wilson: I think our direction is that we consider the rural character. RITA SCWARK 21952 Grand Terrace Road I live exactly on Grand Terrace Road on Vivienda that is one of the reasons we buy out there is because of the density. We don't want it any higher. We have the large lots and we already have several Mobile Home Parks one very large and some other smaller ones. There are enough residents out there and that is why we live out there. If you want to, go to another city. Along with higher density comes higher traffic. We already have the truck problem. We are going to have a school bus problem and any other children that are bussed in there. It is not fair to the residents on the other side of town and that is why we like it where we are. - 32 - Gary L. Koontz,Director: • Blue Mountain- South The next is the Blue Mountain South and it is the Teal color on the map. This is designated as Open Space and no development proposed because of the steep terrain environmental constraints. The Open Space Element further defines the elevation 1,450 as being the defining line of Open Space versus any kind of development area. Down here next to the toe of the slope you have some areas that are less steep and they are designated for Low-Density Residential. They are zoned in the R1 20,000 designation. They are developable in more of a Cluster Hillside type of a standard. The question is that since we have this area here, and I assume that we want to retain the open space as Open Space, do you want to slide the Open Space down at all? I personally recommend against it but it is still something that we need to talk about. Vice Chair Addington: Why would you recommend against it? Gary L. Koontz, Director: There is potential for development here if it is done right. If you said the people own this property, it is Open Space and you can't develop anything, there is a legal question on that in terms of that far of a down zoning. Chair Wilson: Wouldn't when we start to get into that aspect of the Hillside, it be governed severely by the incline of the slope? Gary L. Koontz,Director: Absolutely. Chair Wilson: We may also be talking about a moving point anyway? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Right. There is concurrence that the Open Space should be retained as Open Space and no one touches it? Commissioner Phelps: I share that view but it seems to me that if.we have put one or two Specific Plans on this for cell towers or other towers in the past? Gary L. Koontz, Director: I don't believe that there were Specific Plans, but there are some cell towers up on top. Vice Chair Addington: I thought you were here with Patrizia where we did put a Specific Plan. John Lampe,Associate Planner: On the very top of the mountain there was a Specific Plan for American Tower. It was about seven years ago and it was a very small piece of property. Vice Chair Addington: Is that in the Open Space area or not? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Yes. If you look the tower is sitting on top of the ridge in this area (- which is all one designation. - 33 - Vice Chair Addington: So even with the Open Space there is the probability of small development? Gary L. Koontz, Director: In terms of those kinds of uses. What we can do if you want is in that Hillside Open Space designation is do some sort of discussion on more institutional uses like cell towers. Those are basically the only thing that you are looking at up there because houses would not be permitted. Vice Chair Addington: To change the zoning would they need a Specific Plan? I am thinking that we ought to add that language. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Specific Plans and the way they are used to designate a cell tower site using a Specific Plan, in my opinion is overkill. There are other ways to handle it that get you the same result without using that tool. In my opinion, the State Planning Law defines what you are supposed to be using Specific Plans for and I think we are using it because we think it's the only tool we have right now to use. We can write into the Hillside Open Space discussion "Cell Towers are an allowable use under the following provisions," you have an existing area and you don't want the entire top of that ridgeline saturated with cell towers. You can define that there are existing areas and those areas can be expanded vertically; you can add more towers and different things to the towers, but you can't expand them horizontally to take over the entire ridgeline. You can write in things like that. Vice Chair Addington: I would appreciate that Gary. Chair Wilson: Are there any other areas identified by the Planning Commission? I believe Vice Chair Addington has one he wants to bring up. Vice Chair Addington: Along McClarren Street between Canal Road and Vivienda it seems to me that these lots are the size for Low-Density Residential. Are these Low-Density Residential? Gary L. Koontz, Director: Those are primarily duplexes and triplexes and John correct me if I am wrong. Vice Chair Addington: I know a couple of times there have been applications to take one lot and keep it as one lot and then add four units on it. In the past I haven't been too keen on that idea but it was an allowable use. Are all of these like duplexes and triplexes in that area? John Lampe,Associate Planner: I don't know the exact percentages. It is kind of a mixed bag of Duplexes and Single Family. I think one of those properties there was some kind of an approval for four units on it but the property owner never developed the property. Commissioner Comstock: I am aware of one those parcel's there along the top side of McClarren that has four Single Family homes on one parcel. It is not just duplexes they are detached units as well. They have a pretty high density. Vice Chair Addington: Maybe that area should stay as Medium Density? Over north of Van Buren and west of Mt. Vernon in the area that would be south of the projection of the Junior High School, it seems in looking at the loting layouts in here maybe we should change the Land Use designation back to Low Density Residential (LDR). - 34 - Gary L. Koontz, Director: I have been talking to one individual who is consolidating a couple of lots in this corner and doing some sort of a multi family project. There is some proposed consolidation out there. Vice Chair Addington: Those were my thoughts on the additional ones. Gary L. Koontz,Director: One area that we didn't discuss is: • Blue Mountain North We have the requirement for the Specific Plan and this Low Density Residential. In the General Plan I want to add a lot more policies and beef up the requirements on what can happen up in here and what the guidelines are going to be in terms of preservation and be as specific as possible in a General Plan to regulate that area as much as possible. That area is a very sensitive area. It could be developed but if it'd developed improperly it is going to be terrible. Vice Chair Addington: I agree and I know of three projects that have been proposed over the last 20 years and the third one that went in for being proposed was too high of a density for it. Commissioner Phelps: To the south east block at the very end of Palm, I can see that used as a possible Day Use and Park area for the hikers that would be potentially going to use the Open Space if it ever turns into a wilderness area on Blue Mountain. Is there a way that we can designate that { particular parcel as a way to accept that? Gary L. Koontz, Director: What I want to do in terms of the requirements is require that any proposed development provide park access and trails. Someday it will hopefully be a park. Commissioner Phelps: I can see that Palm Avenue is the best area to be used as access. Gary L. Koontz, Director: If someone came in I.want to make sure that we have the policies in place and say they have to provide us with realistic park access. Under the Specific Plan requirement you folks have the right to look at it and say if they have given us enough or no we want more. Chair Wilson: Are we moving on the Circulation Element? Gary L. Koontz, Director: I would open it up to the Public and if they have any ideas on change that we haven't talked about and talk about it. JEFFREY MCCONNELL 21758 Walnut Avenue Gary was talking about that area and if the developer and some of the parcel owners came in there and collectively said they wanted to change that to an R2, would this be the time? Could this happen instead of going through a large process? - 35 -- Gary L. Koontz, Director: We are looking at both an R2 and R3 area permitted under the Medium Density Residential so it would be a zone change from and R2 to and R3 with no change to the General Plan. Chair Wilson: The General Plan designation is the same. Gary L. Koontz, Director: Eventually when we get through all of this, we are going to be looking at the Zoning Ordinance and the Zoning Map and at that point anyone could ask for a change in the Zoning Map to reflect in the General Plan. Jeffrey McConnell: That is what I wanted to know. Is that going to be in a month or two? Gary L. Koontz, Director: I recommend that we schedule another Workshop to attack the entire Circulation Element on our next one and make that the focus. The question is do you want to do it on the first Thursday of the month or do you want to wait until April 19`h Chair Wilson: Depends on the schedule of the third Thursday. Gary L. Koontz, Director: The schedule is very light on April 19`h', I think we might have a house. Vice Chair Addington:' I am available for the first Thursday of April if the other Commissioners are. Commissioner Phelps: Same here. Commissioner Comstock: I may have a conflict but I will try real hard. Chair Wilson: I don't have any objection to the first Thursday. Vice Chair Addington: I have a question towards'the Commissioners. We had talked that as we move forward with the General Plan review we would like to have as many Commissioners here as possible, at the last meeting when we had a quorum of three we voted to continue this to tonight's meeting. Is there a preference as to the minimum number of Commissioners we should have to move forward on the General Plan? Chair Wilson: From my personal situation I did.not anticipate meeting that night. The reason why I didn't is because I didn't receive a Staff Report or else I would have been there. The point is valid on whether or not we should have a full house or close as we can. I would be in support to at least 4 of 5 should be here. Commissioners: We agree to that Gary L. Koontz, Director: I am sorry for not sending out a notice. It was my understanding at the meeting before that, you had all agreed to have the meeting. From now on when we do these everyone will receive some sort of Staff Report,Agenda and Notice. - 36 - • Information to Commissioners None • Information from Commissioners None ADTOURN PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING TO BE HELD ON APRIL 5. 2007 Respectfully Submitted, Approved B Gary LIKoontz,44Knning Director Doug Wilson, Chairman Planning Commission - 37 -