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08/17/2006 I Community and Economic Development (ALIfORNIA Department 22795 Barton Road Grand Terrace California 92313-5295 (909) 824-6621 GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING August 17,2006 The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center. 22795 Barton Road. Grand Terrace. California, on August 17.2006 at 7:00 a.m.,by Chair Wilson. PRESENT: Doug Wilson, Chairperson Matthew Addington, Vice Chairperson Tom Comstock, Commissioner Darcy McNaboe, Commissioner _ Brian Phelps, Commissioner Gary Koontz, Community Development Director John Lampe,Associate Planner Richard Shields, Director of Building and Safety Richard Garcia, Assistant Planner Laura Reinarz, Planning Secretary 7:00 P.M. CONVENE SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/ PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING • Call to Order • Pledge of Allegiance • Roll Call • Public address to Commission shall be limited to three minutes unless extended by the Chairman. Should you desire to make a longer presentation, please make written request to be agendized to the Director of Community and Economic Development. 1 PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: None ITEMS: 1. MINUTES Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of July 6, 2006 RECOMMENDATIONS: Approval MOTION PC-21-2006 Chair Addington made a motion to approve the minutes of July 20, 2006 Commissioner Phelps seconded the motion. MOTION VOTE PC-21-2006 Approved 5-0-0 2. CUP-06-05/E-06-09 CUP-06-05/E-06-09 Conditional Use Permit No. 06-05 (CUP-06-05) and Environmental Case No. 06-09 (E- 06-09) to construct a"drive-thru" for the existing Demetri's Restaurant. APPLICANT: Demetri's Restaurant LOCATION: 21900 Barton Road (1.95 acre parcel located on the north side of Barton Road just west of La Crosse Avenue) RECOMMENDATION: Receive the staff s presentation, re-open the public hearing, receive public testimony, close the public hearing and approve CUP-06-05 and E-06-09. Chair Wilson: I'd like to remind the commission that this item has been before us once, and we have asked for additional information. We understand that this additional information has been furnished, and we also have a full commission tonight where we had not a full commission prior. Do we have a staff report? Associate Planner Lampe presented his staff report as follows: Mr. Chairman, the applicant's engineers have prepared a revised plan for the proposed - "drive thru." We received the latest version of the "drive thru" yesterday. The revised plan shows a new curve ratio for the "drive thru" at the entrance. Remember at the last 2 meeting we had on July 20`h, there was some discussion about the radius at this location and the radius around the first turn next to the patio. That radius was modified together with the radius of the last turn at the northeast corner of the building, to accommodate full size vehicles to go thru the "drive thru." The patio wall was modified to allow the change of the curve radius,pulling the patio wall back a little bit. The location of the menu boards changed just slightly from what was seen at the last meeting, but essentially they are in the same location. One of the commissioners, in looking at the staff report earlier this week, questioned whether the turn at the northeast corner of the building had the proper curve radius in order to accommodate full size vehicles. The applicant's engineer did redraw this turn with a larger radius, showing a 25-foot outside radius of the curve and a 15-foot inside radius curve. Using a template, these curves were reviewed by the City's Traffic Engineer to make sure they were adequate. He feels that the curves, as shown, will be adequate to accommodate a full size vehicle at that location. The revised drawing also shows a third cross section that wasn't on the prior plan considered a month ago. The section is located where there is an existing 6- foot block wall along the property line, next to the shopping center to the east. It shows the width of the proposed "drive thru" at that location. The revised drawing does show individual vehicles in the queue line to the pick up window or service window. It shows something on the order of 5 or 6 vehicles in the queue before the menu board, and another 5 vehicles located between the menu board and the pick up window. Also, to make sure that there will be a smooth vehicle flow through the "drive-thru," if someone comes thru and places a very large order that is going to take more time than normal to fill, they will be asked to exit the "drive-thru" and go around to park in one of the parking spaces which will be designated as a pull out space, while they wait for their order to be filled. This will increase the vehicle flow and reduce the number of cars that would be waiting in the queue for the service. At the conclusion at the last meeting on July 20t', during the discussion period, the Chairman asked the members who voted against this proposal to elaborate a little about the reasons for that. I understand that it was primarily because of the length of the queue line, and the potential for traffic to back up possibly into the right-of-way of Barton Road and create traffic issues on Barton Road. Staff asked the City's Traffic Engineer, who is here tonight to answer questions you may have, to conduct a traffic study on the adequacy of the queue length or the stacking storage area of the "drive-thru." We delivered a copy of that report to each member of the commission. The study reviewed two restaurants similar to Demetri's in the Redlands area that also have the same menu and the same type of food. From that study, the traffic engineer concluded that the proposed queue line has sufficient storage capacity and is adequate. 3 Again the staff is recommending that this matter be approved. We have prepared a resolution witli suggested conditions of approval, which we did modify slightly from the last time we were here. We are requiring the 4-foot wrought iron railing that we talked about at the last meeting. This is for the purpose of making sure that people don't get out of their car and walk to the back to get something, or step out over the retaining wall. This is a safety feature. Also, there is another condition requiring at least one space be designated as a pull out space, for those people who are waiting for their orders to be completed. That does complete the staff presentation Mr. Chairman. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Does any commissioner have questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Vice Chair Addington: I would like to ask a question of our traffic consultant. Director Koontz: Would you like a presentation from the traffic consultant? Chair Wilson: Yes, we would. Craig Neustaedter Irvine, CA Mr. Chairman and members of the commission, my name is Craig Neustaedter. I serve as a consultation traffic engineer for the City of Grand Terrace, and it has been a privilege to do that for the last ten years. The planning staff has asked me to review some issues concerning this particular project, Demetri's Restaurant. My understanding is that the commission had a concern about rather or not the "drive-thru" window would provide sufficient storage capacity for vehicles using the "drive-thru" window, so last week we did a fairly simple straight- forward study. The applicant assisted us by identifying two comparable restaurants in the area, Nick's Burgers and Tom's Burgers, which are both located in the City of Redlands. It is my understanding that they both have very similar terms of operations as Demetri's restaurant does. This was a fairly straightforward analysis. We gathered information concerning the operations of the facility, such as the hours of operation, the size of the facility, and so forth. Next, we installed two counters in the "drive-thru" lane of each facility, to identify the peak hours of operation. At both facilities, lunch-time was the peak period. At Nick's, it was 11:30 a.m. - 12:30 p.m., and at Tom's it was 11:00 a.m. — 12:00 p.m. The following day, we staffed a person at the window of each of the facilities under study, in a position to observe operations at the window, and to identify the number of vehicles queued or stored in the "drive-thru" aisle waiting for service. Every minute, _ the observer noted the number of vehicles in the drive aisle and what we found is that during the peak hours of operations, the maximum number of vehicles in the "drive-dim" 4 aisle never exceeded 3 vehicles, including the vehicle waiting at the window. We can safely conclude that similar type of queuing characteristics would occur at Demetri's restaurant. It is reasonable to expect that three, perhaps no more than four, vehicles would be stored. That would indicate a maximum storage requirement of 75 to 100 feet. Based on the plan, there is storage space of 175 feet from the "drive-thru" entry to the window itself, which is enough space for approximately seven vehicles. My conclusion is that there is sufficient storage capacity in the drive aisle. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Mr. Neustaedter, my question centers on the public impact. I have little doubt that the impact to the onsite has been addressed, and I believe that what you've said is correct. What I see is a lack of investigation in relation to the public entrance. I am concerned about the corner, which I believe my associates had also expressed at the last meeting. We have Barton Road, which is a real cramped circumstance off La Crosse. I need to understand how cross traffic is going to function where we make a left hand turn into the entrance, with the possibility of a clogging situation. You've got two uses, a situation where they pull into a "drive-thru," and they also might use the parking lot. You've got other uses to handle, along with the cross traffic to La Crosse. I think I share some concern about that. Craig Neustaedter: Well, at this point, I have not previously been asked about this particular issue. What I normally advise in terms of commercial facilities, restaurants, or shopping centers, is that you should have a minimum of about 40 feet of entry-way in order to provide storage for about two vehicles. I haven't measured that distance, so I'm sharing with you what I use as a rule of thumb in terms of appropriate distance. I recommend 40 feet. Chair Wilson: I understand. The concern that I have I think is, I mean, I realize we have an existing use and existing drive-way and it functions the way it does now, but we are changing the characteristics of that drive-way. That is why I believe it's important to address this. Director Koontz: I just scaled if off and it is 40 feet. Vice Chair Addington: Yes, I have a couple of questions. Mine are more of a technical nature, going back to the recommendations of the Institute of Traffic Engineers, or"ITE." What design vehicle would they use length-wise? Craig Neustaedter: For this type of "drive-thru" aisle, actually my reference is "ASTRO," The American Association of State Highway Transportation Officials, as opposed to "ITE." The guidance is to use a large passenger vehicle, which would be the equivalent of a pick-up truck. Typically these types of facilities are not designed for large vans, certainly not multi axle trucks. Standard practice is to design for a large passenger vehicle. r Vice Chair Addington: The vehicles they show are 6 feet by 14 feet, and 6 feet by 16 feet. Do these meet what you just described? 5 r- I Craig Neustaedter: I'm not sure where those dimensions are referenced. Vice Chair Addington: They are referenced in the outline of the vehicles. One is at the first bend and one is shown right next to the proposed menu ordering sign. Craig Neustaedter: I'll tell you that the dimensions I am dealing with right here are 61/2 feet by 18 feet. These dimensions that I'm using are from the "ASTRO" Guide. Vice Chair Addington: I did a little research on a 6 by 14 vehicle. It sort of looked to me like a sub compact, and a 6 by 16 looked like a compact vehicle. So, I was wondering how this queuing would work if we actually put in a full size designed vehicle 18 1/2 or 19 feet. Craig Neustaedter: Well that is what I tested for. Vice Chair Addington: Length in the queuing was such an issue in the last meeting that I didn't attend. What spacing between the cars is usually included in this type of design? Craig Neustaedter: We normally assume about a 5-foot space bumper to bumper. Vice Chair Addington: Okay. For this type of a hamburger type restaurant then, what queuing length does "ASTRO"recommend? Craig Neustaedter: Well, "ASTRO" doesn't make a recommendation. I think that really has to be determined on case-by-case basis. In this case, we identified two comparable restaurants, in comparable settings, with comparable menus. We observed that the maximum number of vehicles in the queue was 3 vehicles, and so that would indicate a storage requirement of about 75 feet. This facility is proposing storage of about 170 feet, so my conclusion is that there should be adequate storage capacity for the typical queue. Even if they have a bargain day and sell burgers for a penny a piece, they might be doing okay. Vice Chair Addington: Regarding the commissioner who brought up the concern about the exit turn, which previously showed an outside turning radius of 15 feet. For the design vehicle that you just described, will the 25-foot radius outside radius work? Craig Neustaedter: Yes,just before the meeting John showed me the most recent plan. I bought my template with me, and I checked it against the large passenger vehicle. There was no problem as far as clearance was concerned. Vice Chair Addington: I have another question for you. It concerns the new super large vehicles out there, such as the Ford pick-up trucks with those extra wide mirrors for towing trailers. Is the clearance on these plans, which appears to be 9 1/2 feet, enough for the mirrors on these large trucks? 6 Craig Neustaedter: I have to tell you that I am not an expert on the dimensions of vehicles like you've just described. I'm working from a set of standards, and that is just beyond my knowledge or expertise. I couldn't respond to that. I will happy to research that if necessary. Darcy McNaboe: I have a question. It has to do with the numbers in both of your studies. I'm referring the one with the tube and the one where you had somebody watching the queue. How do those number correlate with each other? Craig Neustaedter: They seem to have very similar operations, extremely similar, peak hours very similar. Darcy McNaboe: I guess maybe because you're looking at intervals of a minute, where as you broken it down to intervals of 15 minutes for the tube. Can you explain that to me? Craig Neustaedter: It's simply not cost affect to have an observer for an extended period of time doing this type of work. What is cost affective is to go ahead and do automatic traffic counts with the tube counter, so that we can identify the peak hour of operations for the two facilities. Hypothetically, going into this we didn't know if the peak hour was 7 in the morning or 5 at night. The tube counter allows us to identify the peak hours of operations, so then we can assign a person, an observer, to go to the two facilities and stand by the drive aisle and actually count the number of vehicles in the queue. Darcy McNaboe: So the difference in number doesn't make a difference, we're looking more at the one when the observer was there. Craig Neustaedter: We can't expect a perfect correlation. That is not reasonable. The only reason we did the tube count in the first place was to identify when the peak hours were occurring. By far the more accurate way of counting is with an observer. Darcy McNaboe: Have you seen the layout of the "drive-thru" of these other two restaurants, were you actually there? Craig Neustaedter: I went to both facilities. Darcy McNaboe: How is the layout? How is the approach to the "drive-thru" in comparison to the approach to Demetri's, i.e. a drive-way off a major street? How far into the parking lot do you go before you get to the drive thru? Are there opportunities for cars to back up into the line of those cars coming in approaching the"drive-thru?" Craig Neustaedter: I'm going on memory here. As I recall, to get to the "drive-thru" for Nick's is really a turn-about route. Cars have to go through the parking lot and make at least two turns in order to be in a position to enter the "drive-thru." Actually, Tom's Burgers is somewhat more analogous to this facility because there is a distance between the front street and the "drive-thru." A driver would enter from the frontage street and 7 then make a right turn into the "drive-thru" aisle. Here again, I didn't mention the - dimensions on that. The physical layout though, is quite similar to that of Demetri's. Commissioner Comstock: I have a question. I'm looking for bottom line. You said you could stack, according to your engineer specifications, 7 cars or queue 7 cars in that "drive-thru." The plans that we have specify 10 smaller vehicles, but you're saying that if we had 7 full size pick-up trucks, they would all fit in that line without having them stick out into the main entrance way. Craig Neustaedter: Yes. Chair Wilson: Commissioners, any more questions for the traffic engineer? Commissioner Phelps: Is Tom's or Nick's driveway a one-way drive-way or a two-way drive-way? I know this one is a one-way driveway, which creates a problem with people going out the wrong way because it's so narrow. It's designed for a one way entrance. Craig Neustaedter: As.far as Nick's is concerned, the drive-way is positioned at the far end of the parking lot, so you enter and it's not really conducive to two-way traffic. Traffic backing out of the parking lot could be addressed the same way. I would say that both facilities are actually two-way traffic adjacent to the entry of the driveway. Chair Wilson: Any further comments from the Commissioners for the Traffic Engineer? No. Okay, thank you Mr. Neustaedter. Mr. Addington, you had questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Vice Chair Addington: Yes. Gary I wasn't here at the last meeting, so I didn't get the full part of the last report.... Director Koontz: I wasn't here either. Vice Chair Addington: Oh, maybe my questions are for John then. Regarding the zoning, I would assume since this building was built a while back that it's set back from the property line is sufficient? Planner Lampe: Yes, we don't have anything that prohibits drive-ways with the setback area. This is a C2 zone so its 20 foot set back so I think the "drive-thru" would be outside of that set back. Vice Chair Addington: Is this project outside of the Barton Road Specific Plan? Planner Lampe: Yes, its west of the freeway. Vice Chair Addington: We're doing a Conditional Use Permit on this because..... 8 Planner Lampe: Because the C2 zone specifically requires a Conditional Use Permit for a"drive-thru"facility. Vice Chair Addington: As I recall the conditions of the exit drive way, you're conditioning it to be 11 feet wide? Planner Lampe: We are conditioning it to conform to the site plan that is approved by the planning commission. Is the exit drive-way you're talking about, the exit to the "drive- thm?„ Vice Chair Addington: Yes, the exit to the "drive-thru." They are still showing 10 feet, versus the 11 feet that we were conditioning them for. Planner Lampe: We could ask the applicant if he can comply with that condition of another foot. I think there is enough room there that they could comply with this condition. In fact, we were talking about if they still have some issue with the turning there. On the last turn, you could take a little more property from the southerly side of that "drive-way." This would make the turn even easier than what was proposed, so we feel that there be enough room to widen that out. Vice Chair Addington: The next question I have is directed to Building and Safety. On the existing SCE transformer, where they're proposing a block wall all the way around it, what clearance does SCE typically ask for? Director Shields: Well they have certain working distances for certain voltages. So that particular block wall, depending on the voltage, may have to be 12" away. It could be more, but you could also put ballads in lieu of the block wall. Vice Chair Addington: So that location really isn't an issue to Building and Safety then? Director Shields: No, it's not. We are going to make sure it's protected before we allow the first car to go through, and more than likely Edison will also because there is a large power pole that has to be moved. They will be looking at this facility also. Chair Wilson: I have a question regarding the 11 foot width. I don't see anything in the resolution that specifies an 11 foot width. Director Koontz: Actually it's in the Building and Safety Conditions of Approval, on the second page under"building permit condition number 6." Director Shields: On the original plan that I reviewed, I felt that 10 feet was too narrow, so I requested that it be brought to an 11 foot dimension with a slight radius. This was so that when vehicles pass the actual parking area and make that turn, there would be more room to make a turn. It just never was drawn that way. I concur with Mr. Lampe that if you look at the way the building is situated in the 15 foot radius, that radius curve right there could be reduced from the radius to a straight line. This could be brought straight 9 back to the 15 foot radius and rolled in to make even a wider than an 11 foot area, which would help extremely. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Are there any further questions of the staff before we open the public hearing? Then we will move on the public portion of this item. We have a request to speak form, Patricia Farley, please state you name and address for the record. Patricia Farley 12513 Michigan Street I thought there was going to be an effort in Grand Terrace to avoid having a bunch of "drive-thrus" up and down Barton Road. This particular one is in a very bad area because of it being by the off-ramp of the freeway, and I believe Valero wants to put in another "drive-thru" over on the other side by the off-ramp. I think we are going to have a lot of traffic problems there. The other reason that I don't like seeing a bunch of "drive-thrus" is because of the pollution and the noise that these kinds of businesses cause; and I have got to say that if I were leasing one of the other business properties there I would be pretty upset, because I think it would have a negative affect on business. I'm sure since the other businesses are leasing from the owner of this property that is applying for this, that you're not going to hear how they feel. I think it would be very damaging and unpleasant to people going to these other businesses. The other thing I would like to point out is "number 19"' on the Conditional Use Permit. This is an issue that we have been upset about with Swertfeger Trucking. When they say that they will not give, if they don't follow the conditions, that they don't have an extension beyond two years. Mr. Schwab went round and round with me, explaining why that could be extended indefinitely for years and years, as they have done with Swertfeger Trucking. That is not what is says, but the reality of what goes on in Grand Terrace is that you can't count on that. There seems to be a real problem with this city enforcing the conditions that are approved, and Swertfeger trucking is a very good example of flagrant violations of the conditions. The city continues to let it go on and on, so I have some concerns on this as well. Thank you. Chair Wilson: Any other speakers on this particular item? Demetri Hadjiconstantis,the applicant(Mr.Demetri) 21900 Barton Rd Grand Terrace, CA 92313 My name is Demetri Hadjiconstantis, I would like to bring a"drive-thru" to the restaurant if it is possible. If not, I will be fine with it. I just want to make more business and more sales tax for the community. Chair Wilson: Any questions for the applicant? Vice Chair Addington: Is your engineer here tonight? 10 Mr. Hadjiconstantis: Yes Vice Chair Addington: It is my understanding after reading through the staff report that you have to provide clean water devices to take care of the new construction here? Demetri's Engineer Larry Letteris: Yes Vice Chair Addington: Where are you proposing those? Demetri'Engineer Larry Letteris: The drain is a grass swale in front of the "drive-thru." Vice Chair Addington: When I looked at that it, it's rather steep to have a swell in there. Demetri's Engineer Larry Letteris: With actual construction we will make sure that it will have a sufficient fall. Chair Wilson: Any other question for the applicant or his engineer? No, thank you. Now we will bring it back to commission for motion and/or discussion. Vice Chair Addington: I have a question for staff. It is regarding to the clean water issues that were brought up in the staff report. Could you refresh my memory? Under city ordinance, when is the applicant to address this? Should they be addressing this and _ showing us how they would do this during the planning phase, or should this be something that is done during the engineering phase? Director Shields: It's done prior to issuance of the building permit to ensure that, in fact, they're draining it into a filter or well. Director Koontz: We have no formal policy requiring the preliminary water quality management plan be submitted as part of the planning process. We do, on a case by case basis. Director Shields: But we did put it in the conditions, so that they know that this is something that needs to be done. Vice Chair Addington: I appreciate that. I read the report before I did a site visit, and I was having trouble visioning how they were going to comply with your condition. This is why I was inquiring about it. Director Shields: As he mentioned, I think he said a pit or a well. If he puts it on the grass, I think its going to have to go into a filter that is in the grass. Vice Chair Addington: Okay, as long as staff is working with it. If it's in the conditions, - we would like to see something to show that they are taking it seriously, and showing \� something on the plans. 11 Commissioner McNaBoe: I have a question about "condition I L" It has to do with the traffic directional plan. My question is what would be considered an acceptable traffic directional plan for this "drive-thru?" Planner Lampe: This is the first directional plan that has been required for a"drive-thru." I think what we are going to expect is adequate signage, to make sure the traffic is going to be adequately directed on how to go thru the "drive-thru." Commissioner McNaboe: In your mind, what is adequate? Planner Lampe: In terms of the size of the lettering and the location of the signage on the property. We are also going to look at where traffic arrows should be placed on the property to make sure that people have a clear idea of how the traffic should flow. Vice Chair Addington: That would include the single exit? That would include directing traffic to the single exit? Director Koontz: Yes, plus warning signs about the maximum size of a vehicle that can use the lane, things of that sort. Vice Chair Addington: I've driven through the property several times and the entrance is a little confusing; it's almost wide enough for two vehicles, but not quite. Commissioner McNaboe: On my visit there after our last meeting, I pulled in the driveway and there was a van that wanted to come out the wrong way. That was a traffic back up just for two cars. I was left in the driveway until they realized they were going the wrong way. Director Koontz: That's why making sure there is adequate signage to prove this is a one way is an issue. If somebody wants to make an illegal turn out, then it's an enforcement problem. Commissioner Comstock: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I went and looked, one post at the entrance way said entrance, .and exit only on the other side. Are there going to be additional signs added? Director Koontz: We need to take another look at that. Those signs may not be highlighted enough. I think that is one of the issues, that its there but you've got to look at it. Director Shields. Those signs are old and faded. When I was talking to the applicant, I told him that the signs would have to be upgraded, and also the arrows on the asphalt would have to be repainted, and all the directional arrows. So they know they need to do that. 12 Commissioner Phelps: Is there a way we can asked them to put in the condition that its repainted after so many years, so it doesn't fade to a point where its not visible anymore? Director Koontz: We can add the condition enforcing it, but I'm not sure exactly how we are going to do that. But if you want to add a condition like that, we will put it in there and see if we can enforce it. Vice Chair Addington: John, regarding the overall parking for the whole property. It is my understanding that we are going to be taking out a few parking stalls to make everything work. Are we bringing the overall parking count down to under zoning requirements or is there enough extra that this is still fine? Planner Lampe: During a parking study that was done for this center, they went through and counted approximately 100 spaces around these buildings. I went out there and went around and counted the spaces. There are approximately 100 parking spaces there. The parking study that was done, in terms of the uses in the center, determined that 76 parking spaces are required to satisfy zoning code requirements. Our conclusion is that they have a slight excess of parking spaces, so the elimination of 5 or 6 spaces will not affect the required parking for this center. Vice Chair Addington: Thank you. This question is for Mr. Shields. The question is regarding handicap accessibility. In your opinion, does the existing sidewalk as it comes in from Barton Road, the public right-of-way, meet current ADA requirements, or is that something that may have to be upgraded also? Director Shields: Well, I went out to the site with my smart level and put the smart level on not only that area, but also the existing handicap spot. Included in my conditions were that the applicant upgrade the handicap parking stall, so we have the one accessible stall. That was an improvement that I was kind of hinging on the new "drive-thru." On the existing sidewalk, we are dealing with an existing slope of 10.1 %, so in order to get that to work correctly we would have to meander around to get the 8.33 % required by ADA. Vice Chair Addington: This is the way I understand the codes, and if I'm wrong please correct me. There are quite a few exceptions on public right-of-way and zero exceptions on private property. I was looking at your conditions and looking at that sidewalk, which is why I brought it up. If now is the time to bring this to current handicap accessibility standards; I think the Commission can accommodate a condition there. At the very minimum, it is required by code anyway, whatever your opinion is whether we conditioned it or not. Director Shields: In my opinion there are five different criteria that you have to meet in the building code. These five items have to meet certain percentages of money and that is usually when it's hinged to a building, not really a site, and not really public right-of- way. So its fine, it wouldn't be that difficult to do it. We would probably have to start -- back at the handicap ramp in order to get the correct elevations started, to meander to l where in fact the crosswalk runs through the drive approach. It can be done. 13 Vice Chair Addington: Okay, I'll let that be your call, but thanks for the education on that, I appreciate it. Chair Wilson: Should we enter a motion or further discussion? Commissioner Comstock: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add a condition, if we can, that the exit driveway be widened to at least 11 feet. As I look at that area, I am wondering if maybe we might be able to get just a little bit more. Currently the plans have it slated for 10 feet, but if we could make that as wide as possible coming out of that exit, that would be peachy keen. So maybe the condition could read something like, "a minimum of 11 feet and more if possible, up to 12 feet." Chair Wilson: Building and Safety you can lighten our load here and let me know if the language you proposed in your particular line item might cover that issue. Director Koontz: Its condition 6, under Building and Safety Conditions of Approval. Director Shields: What we can do is simply re-state condition 6 to, "curving at the exit of the `drive-thru' should be constructed to fan out to 11 foot or wider." Chair Wilson: Any other discussion or enter a motion? Vice Chair Addington: One other discussion item. I was just looking at public works condition number 7, and it shows Cal-Trans right-of-way on the street plans. Are there street improvements proposed here that I'm not aware of? Director Shields: No, but when I was studying the plan I went on site and I was not able to determine where the Cal-Trans right-of-way was. So I asked the applicant to have a surveyor come out and stake the Cal-Trans right-of-way, so I can match it up to the plan that I have. The applicant did do that. Vice Chair Addington: I appreciate that; I saw the corner out there. Director Shields: He had a stake placed out there and it helped me tremendously. Commissioner Phelps: Where was that right-of-way? Director Shields: I think it was 6 '/z feet back from the existing roll curb. Commissioner Phelps: Now is that just on the east side, or is that also on the southerly side? Director Shields: That will follow the radius, the street radius that will follow 7 feet all the way to the corner. 14 Chair Wilson: Any further discussion? Chair will entertain a motion. Commissioner Comstock: Mr. Chairman I move that we approve Conditional Use Permit 06-05 and the environmental review 06-09 with conditions. Chair Wilson: We have a second? Chair Wilson: Motion dies for lack of a second. The chair will entertain a motion. Is there any further discussion? Vice Chair Addington: I like to make a motion to continue this project to the next planning meeting, approximately 30 days away. As part of this, I would like the applicant to show the 11 foot or greater exit on the plans. I would like the applicant to also use his alternate curb location on the plans and finally, I would like the applicant to address the clean water issue on the plans. Chair Wilson: I second that. I would like to add, for discussion purposes, that I'd like the city engineer to address the issue raised in relation to cross traffic and interference, or possible conflict, out on Barton Road and La Crosse. I would also like to get an understanding of the comparisons of how the traffic would stage before entering the throat of the "drive-thru," because I find this data incomplete for us to be able to make a decision. _ Vice Chair Addington: The last item is that I would like to have the applicant comply with the building code. Chair Wilson: Motion is on the floor and has been seconded. Do we understand the request? Director Shields: I do. Commissioner Phelps: I have one more thing. Could we also possibly get alternative designs to the one way entrance? Perhaps we could get an alternative design to improve the flow, so that we don't have the problems that we have with the one way entrance now. Director Shields: Let me give you some history. The applicant's first proposal on this site was to have a two-way entrance, and to widen out the northerly curb and gutter. I didn't have a problem with that. This proposal would have required him to go into a right-of-way, and we would probably have had to rebuild the handicap approach, which I didn't have an issue with. Right next to the handicap approach is a fire hydrant though. To move that fire hydrant I think the applicant was looking at, and you have to correct me, $10,000 or more. I can't remember what the exact amount was, but that is when the applicant decided to go ahead and leave the way it is. 15 Director Koontz: Actually I had a problem with the two-lane, two-way. My problem was that making a legal left turn movement that close to the traffic signals is, in my opinion, going to cause more trouble. If you want us to look at that we can do it,but I am going to ask the traffic engineer for his professional opinion on the left turn movements. I think it's just going to make the situation worse. Commissioner Phelps: Is there a way that we could have it designed so cars can only enter on a right turn into that particular driveway? Could we make the curve at an angle coming out without moving the fire hydrant, but by working on the other side? Director Koontz: I really don't think the left turn from west side of Barton is a real problem. I think it is the left turn coming out, because you're so close with short stacking at the traffic signal. I would strongly urge against having an in and out, two-way in that area. Commissioner Phelps: I agree, I think the one-way is the right way to go. Commissioner Comstock: If the people aren't paying attention to the laws with the way the driveway is set up now, they're certainly not going to pay attention to no left turn onto Barton Road if we open up the driveway further. Vice Chair Addington: After we take a vote on the condition, I will offer a possible solution. Chair Wilson: Thank you. In advance to this, I would like to state that I do know that the applicant has probably spent enough, if not a substantial sum of money, to investigate this possibility. Since we are continuing this item for the second time, I would like to call for a poll of the commissioners to see if they would be satisfied with the information they requested. What would their tendency be toward on this particular one? Is it worth it for the applicant to continue pursuing this, or is this an item that may not be worth pursuing financially? Vice Chair Addington: Since I made the motion, I will be happy to go first. My opinion on this is that what was originally proposed, I thought was technically incorrect and would not work. Through my discussions with Planner Lampe and Planner Lampe's discussions with the applicant, they corrected and put what was, in my opinion, several technical difficulties. I think it could work now but I'm still not fully completely comfortable with this. I think if a couple more issues are revised, I would have greater comfort level in voting for this. Chair Wilson: Commissioner McNaBoe Commissioner McNaboe: I'm still not comfortable with the traffic issue. 7 16 Commissioner Phelps: I'm also still uncomfortable with the approach to the "drive-thru." I don't know if it's a design that can be fixed it at this point, I don't see how. I would say at this point, no for me. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Commissioner Comstock. Commissioner Comstock: I think they done a good job at re-engineering. I'm in favor of it. Chair Wilson: Thank you. A motion has been made, a second has been made, please vote. PC-22-2006 MOTION VOTE PC-22-2006 Approved 3-2-0-0 with Commissioner McNaBoe voting no and Commissioner Comstock voting no. Vice Chair Addington: This is an existing site that is trying to be retrofitted and all the commissioners are coming up with very valid concerns. One thing that you know, if it meets with staff approval, is to re-stripe the entrance and through this striping, put in painted median islands or a painted island there. This is to give the traffic the hint that - they shouldn't be driving there. Then maybe near the entrance, a sign that says "no exit" might help. This would be a very inexpensive, cost effective solution for the applicant that may or may not solve the commissioners' concerns. Again, it would be up to staff if this is accepted by staff. Director Koontz: Were you asking for some sort of a preliminary directorial plan for your review? Vice Chair Addington: That was Commissioner McNaBoe's question. I'll let her answer that one. Commissioner McNaBoe: I would like to see a proposed solution for the signs; something specific. Director Koontz: If you would like to see a preliminary directorial plan, we will get that for you. Commissioner McNaBoe: If I don't see a preliminary directorial plan, I am probably going to tend to believe that it is going to be something that is on the pavement that people will ignore, and I will not feel comfortable voting. Director Koontz: If that is what the commission asks for then that is what we will - provide. 17 Chair Wilson: Thank you. Okay lets move on to item#3 which is a request to look at a telecommunications facility. My understanding is this particular item, without going into an extended conversation, has been withdrawn. Director Koontz: Yes we advertised before we were notified that is was withdrawn, so it was already scheduled for hearing. All we would like you to do is accept the withdrawal. Chair Wilson: SA-06-06/E-06-07/CUP-06-04 entertains a motion. PC-23-2006 Vice Chair Addington made a motion to accept the withdrawal of the application. Commissioner McNaBoe seconded the motion. MOTION VOTE PC-23-2006 Approved 5-0-0 ADJOURN SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING CONVENE PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION • INFORMATION FROM THE COMMISSIONERS Director Shields: Staff has been involved in helping Omnitrans create new guidelines, and Omnitrans would like to have all jurisdictions adopt this guideline. So what I've done is I've created copies for you, and at a later date I'll bring this back as an agenda item for discussion. Prior to this going to City Council, I felt that would be prudent for me to have it go to Planning Commission and get our opinion on it. This document has taken many hours to create, and a lot of people have been involved in this. It has involved SanBag, Caltrans, and a lot of public works directors, and engineers from around the Inland Empire, so actually going in and making changes at this point it might be a little bit difficult. If you do have some changes however, I will be more than happy to present that to them at a later date. We do have a date this month, the 21", to meet and discuss how the directors of all the local jurisdictions would like to proceed to get this adopted. My recommendation to that board is that most jurisdictions should send it through their Planning Commissions first to get their opinions on it. That may trigger some changes to the guideline, but it's intense, it's quite thick, and it has a lot of information on it. In fact the bus stop that we required at the Sav-on Drug store almost complies with the regulation. We have done a good job here. This will be brought back at a latter date; I'm thinking another month, maybe a month and a half. Chair Wilson: Thank you. Are there any questions from the Commissioners? 18 Vice Chair Addington: Does Omnitrans really run buses through town? Actually the RTA does on its way to the hospitals. Are you saying that the City of Grand Terrace is still a member of Omnitrans? Director Shields: It is my understanding that Omnitrans and RTA are combined now. Omnitrans is trying to become more noticed throughout the Inland Empire, and they are trying to get into every city and every jurisdiction that has anything to do with planning facilities for streets and projects. If you read the inside first page, it explains some of the areas that they are trying to get into. If you could just write those questions down, I can probably answer them more thoroughly when we go through and make the process for this handout a formal document. ADJOURNED PUBLIC WORKSHOP SESSION 8:25 PM NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING TO BE HELD ON OCTOBER 19,2006 Respectfully Submitted, Approved , ✓ . 2,5<: _ Gary I/Koontz, 1`106g Director Doug Wilson, Chairman Planning Commission 19