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06/03/2004 ' 11 Community and Economic Development Department CALIFORNIA GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION MINTi UES OF REGULAR MEETING JUNE 3, 2004 The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Plannina Commission was called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton Road, Grand Terrace, California, on June 3, 2004, at 7:00 P.m., bv,Chairverson Doug Wilson. PRESENT: Doug Wilson, Chairman Matthew Addington, Vice Chairman Brian Whitley, Commissioner Tom Comstock, Commissioner Robert Bidney, Commissioner Gary Koontz, Community Development Directc Ralph Megna, Economic Development Director John Lampe, Associate Planner Michelle Boustedt, Planning Secretary 7:00 P.M. CONVENE.SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/ PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING Pledge.of Allegiance led by Commissioner Bidney Rol! Call PUBLIC PARTICIPATION: Virginia Ogawa 12556 Michigan This is not regarding the OAC. I would like to speak to you about Michigan Street. I have lived there for 17 years and I have heard that road improvements are going to be needed because of the.new homes from Highgrove. I would like to know if we are going to four lanes or two lanes. I understand the allocation that Grand Terrace is getting is not what they wanted it to be. I understand that we will have lights on Michigan and Mt. Vernon and I am worried that if you go ahead and expand to four lanes or even leave the street at two lanes, the traffic from the new homes will make it impossible to enter and exit my driveway and all of our driveways on Michigan. As it is now, we have had accidents on my property and we have had a woman take out the family fleet because my son was pulling in to the driveway. '. 22795 Barton Road 9 Grand Terrace, Cdlifornia 92313-5295 • 909/ 824-6621 We have had people take out our brick wall twice. I don't know what it is about 12556 Michigan but we seem to be the spot to have an accident. What I am asking for and hoping is that you might consider speed bumps. Everybody hates speed bumps because you have to slow down. But if they were forced to slow down by the speed bumps, it would make it safer for the residents on Michigan Street. The speed bumps have been used on a Street called Primrose in Riverside by the Galleria for the same reason. The traffic going to and from the Galleria made unsafe for residents on that street. Now the only people that use that street are people unaware that there are speed bumps there and the residents of the area. am asking to please consider speed bumps to make it safe for the children going to school and for the residents on that street. Thank you. ITEMS: 1. SP-04-01, E-04-03 To develop approximately 123 acres as mixed use commercial and open space uses. APPLICANT: City of Grand Terrace Redevelopment Agency. LOCATION: Generally south of Barton Road, west of Michigan Street, north of Pico Street, and east of Interstate 215 RECOMMENDATION: Continue the Public Hearing on the Outdoor Adventures Center Specific Plan (SP-04-0l/E-04-03), receive testimony, .and recommend Certification of the - Environmental Impact Report and Approval of the Ordinance to Adopt the Specific Plan to the City Council. Planning Director Koontz: We have a brief presentation. Because you left the public testimony :open, you can either continue with, the public testimony and we Qan make a :presentation after it is closed. Doug Wilson: Let go ahead and open up the public testimony. Bill Hays 22114 DeBerry I have just handed my request longer than three minutes if it is possible. I would like to address some things with Mr. Koontz with regard to the last Planning Commission meeting and bring it to the attention of the people here. I also addressed it at the last City Council Meeting of last week. Mr. Koontz stated that the lake in this project would be filled from the water table from the ground wells. The theory is that after the lake is filled, it will leach back down through the soil and into the water table. Mr. Koontz said that no more than one boat or Jet Ski will be allowed on the lake within an hour's time. Since the Council Meeting, a general at a local water company also known as the manager has asked me not to use his name or the water company, so I will just say that the manager from a local water company, I called him and asked him if it was a good idea to have powered craft or jet skis on our drinking water, and he said no, and especially with jet skis. I have done some,research, and even with the new EPA rulings that are eventually going to phase out the two cycle engines, they by design 2 emit fuel and oil into the water. The wells that are going to fill this are called the North Riverside Aquifer, are owned by the City of Riverside, and I understand that we have one well. In fact, Dr. Owen Lou from the Department of Riverside's Public Utilities gave me permission to use his name and wanted me to tell you that this is of a concern. There will be one boat or Jet Ski on the lake for one hour, and I called the distributors and some of the mechanics. One of the major manufacturers is still producing a 1,300 CC two cycle jet ski. I was fortunate enough to have Councilwoman Cortes and Assistant City Manager Berry graciously visit me at my home the other day, and I discussed this problem with Mr. Berry, and he said that there would not be anything allowed other than for new jet skis, and explained to him that there was a little blurb that stated that nothing older than 2001 will be allowed on the lake. So then I asked Mr. Berry to explain to me the difference between a 1999 ski doo and 2002, and he said, "I don't know". I told him, "I don't know either Mr. Berry, but I assume that you will be standing down there at the lake and checking the vehicle identification numbers on these things before they go on the lake because people are going to bring in their older jet skis and trade them in for newer ones and I have a sneaking suspicion that if someone comes in there to buy a used one, and someone were to tell a salesman that they want to take it out on the lake to test it, a guy that's working on commission isn't going to tell them no. Also, a mechanic will also be on hand for repairs of boats and jet skis. I don't think that anyone there is so naive to not believe that a mechanic is going to take a boat or jet ski out the,.lake to test his repairs. This is not and if but it is a when: somebody is going to pop an out-drive on one of those things and its going to dump oil. What do you think the City of Riverside is going to do when they find out that the City of Grand Terrace has contaminated their drinking water and our drinking water? This is bound to happen because if this water leaches back into that water table, that's en environmental problem. And I will be willing to bet-that the City of Riverside isn't going to say, "Oh that's okay, we'll just give everybody drinking water." I assume that they have a pretty good law firm working for them. And would like you folks to consider that. It is a big concern that will wrap us up in law suits. Mr. Koontz also said that in the presentation that Michigan was not going to be widened. Mr. Farley asked Mr. Koontz for a commitment that Michigan would not be widened. Mr. Koontz answer was that the street was not going to be widened for this project. I would like to know what project they are going to widen it for. Doug Wilson:,I believe that the answer is that a program that is in the works and is not yet complete. It is completely independent of any thinking in relation to this project at all. That has to do with "Safe Routes to Schools". The only way that Michigan would be affected would be through this program. Bills Hays: Since my background is law enforcement, and I probably look at things with a little squinty eye than most folks do, but I believe that there is a money trail somewhere and would like to explain something if you would just bare with me. Mr. Koontz works for the City of Grand Terrace as the project coordinator for this. He works two days a week at a salary range of $55,730 to $81,737 a year for two days a week. Some of us were concerned and wondered where Mr. Koontz came from, so I called his secretary, Michelle and I asked where did Mr. Koontz work before he came to the City of Grand Terrace. Chair Wilson: Excuse me, before we go further, actually, in relation to this project comments about Mr. Koontz and his employment and all the rest of that have to do with City Council situations, we.did not make those agreements. So any kind of circumstances 3 in the relation to the matter would have no place in this meeting. If you have an issue with that, then you need to take it up with the City Council. This body does not handle that. Bill Hays: Yes it does because Mr. Koontz is working for Nolte and Associates Incorporated " and if you look on the Specific Plan that's who did the work. In closing I would ask that you consider your votes tonight with regard to the fate of a lot of people in this community is in your hands. Some of whom will lose their homes because of the greed and love of money and for no other reason. I do not believe that the OAC is going to .bring one penny of revenue for into the City. It's going to produce revenue but its not going to produce revenue for the city, but for the people that have the fingers in the pie. What we will have to put out in additional services is going to eat up anything that this thing produces, and I wish you would consider that especially when someone is going to be forced out of their life long homes. I wouldn't want that on my conscience. Thank you. Hank-Ramey 21845 Grand Terrace Road#23 This project is an unmitigated disaster. City's like Grand Terrace should not be able to put up projects just for sales tax revenue. This is pathetic. There have been cases dated back to 1977 prohibiting these types of projects and there have also been recent cases within the last decade that says that they cannot use this type of redevelopment for blight because it's not considered blight. This is a money making plan. There are questions With regard to the water need to be resolved, and I haven't read through that part yet, but there are-so-many people here that have worries about the water and traffic. Why are we doing this!project? I know that there are cities like Colton and Rialto that can have a project like this. Has anybody checked on any of the obscure gnat catchers, or caterpillars or butterflies, because I am sure that we are prohibited by the endangered species act from building such land if any exist? If the City wants tax revenue I am sure that since.I am a minority party, that I think, we may have more clout with Sacramento about this. ' Virginia L Harford 11825 Arliss Way would greatly appreciate it if you and those who wish to speak would not take three and half hours of time as you did at the last meeting. Have you considered relocating the homes on both sides of Michigan upgrading, of course. Have you investigated other adventure parks, particularly the ones by the developer you have considered, and have you learned how they have affected the surrounding communities pro and con. Regarding the park, what provisions have you made for toilets strategically placed and convenient? Additionally, have you considered the effects of garbage and people who really do not give a darn where they put their garbage? How is the parking situation going to affect the surrounding homes. Do you plan a 24 foot wall as a sound barrier? What about weeds, security and other problems that need to be addressed before this park is built. The vehicles that will run in this park are they restricted to manually operated or electric ones so as to minimize the noise. What specific benefits will this park to be to Grand Terrace without generalizing? In other words, what have you learned from other communities. How much their income has increased annually, and perhaps the most important question I have to ask you is this: Is this park a done deed. If you have enough opposition to it, will you shelve it for a year or two and down the road think that some of those who object will be dead so you don't have to listen to our arguments. This above scenario is exactly what happened to the high school and you 4 know it. Those of us who objected to building a high school and I still do not believe we need one. I would like to know what the impact is going to be on the high school and vice versa. Before you get my absolute commitment to this, I may be your worst nightmare where I can be very vocal in my objections. As you can see, I ask meaningful questions, i do my homework. I wish you would do the same thing and answer all of these questions for us. You have taken the responsibility as members of the Planning Commission, and we appreciate that. Your motives for doing this work may or may not be in the best interest of Grand Terrace. I urge you to stop and think about what you are doing to this little bitty town. Do your homework. Progress is either in a positive in way, or contaminated by negative actions. PJ Anderson 12375 Vivienda Ave. am opposed to the OAC. The air and water pollution will definitely impact the area. The traffic flow will not be resolved if new entrances and exits are brought in. We have a couple of kids riding up and down the street on scooters now. It's very annoying, and we will have this type of activity going on at 10 o'clock at night. I read in the paper today that it's not an 8 acre lake, it's twelve. I would like to have this town considered a small town, and this will create a lot more traffic problems. Dorothy Farley 12513 Michigan I am convinced that the people seated behind me really would like to live in- a peaceful residential community, but they will need to stand up and fight for their rights, for if this Planning Commission and the present City Council are allowed to continue down the path they:are headed, they will destroy Grand Terrace and it will no longer be a desirable place to live. We should be a nice residential community beside the freeway from which we can take any one of several directions for five to ten miles to a city where we can get about anything we need or want. For about thirty years I lived in such a place in Grand Terrace, and it was a pleasant place to live. We never should have decided to be a City. We were and still are too small to try to run a city. Did you know that Grand Terrace only consists of three and seven tenths,of a mile? We are paying city employees to do things we do not need or want them to do. A couple of days from now, the City Council will spend a large amount of money for a parade supposedly to honor the City of Grand Terrace. But what they are hoping is that the residents will think the Council is doing a great job running the city. Just look at the wonderful parade we put on for you. The City Council will be waving flags with one hand, while the other hand behind their back; where they have been keeping it for about two years, is working to destroy our homes and our quality of life. What hypocrisy. When people discover that they have made a mistake and keep right on doing the same thing, we call that stupid. Let's be big enough to admit that we made a mistake to try to be a city and correct the situation. Let's disband the Planning Commission recall a City Council that would even consider such an insane idea as the OAC. Perhaps, toss the city idea and do whatever it takes to make Grand Terrace a peaceful residential community. Patricia Farley 12513 Michigan 5 At the Planning Commission on May 20th, a few of us happen to get hold of a packet that was on the counter as we entered the chamber. This 65 page packet stated that the City Council and Planning Commission have already made their conclusion for the Environmental Impact Reports for the Outdoor Adventures Center and adopted a statement of overriding considerations which will discard very significant impacts on our air quality, noise, traffic, quality of drinking water, etcetera in the future; and states that all the benefits will out weigh all of this. These findings were to be based on the entire record as it states in the section of this packet regard this, but that was not done. No oral testimony was given before this packet was made up, but it definitely states otherwise on page 6. There are also other major things that are incorrect and incomplete in this packet. Such as an emission table that was revised in the Final Impact Report and it is definitely wrong. It appears on page 57. It was also stated on the May 20 meeting that buildings would not be raised to make room for new uses along Commerce Way or streets widened, etcetera, but did not say that these would be revised or put into the final impact report. There was also no mention in any of these reports about over 2,000 homes being planned in Highgrove or the high school being planned for Grand Terrace or the project planned for Barton Road, all of which will have a great cumulative impact in Grand Terrace which you are required to consider. How can we trust these reports that the city paid thousands of dollars to have made up when they are incomplete and incorrect in many places. When I. inquired at City Hall about a financial impact analysis of the Outdoor Adventures Center, Mr. Koontz told me that one was not done because it was "not required." How can you sit and tell us how much money the OAC project will bring to the City of Grand Terrace, when_a financial impact analysis has not been done. I believe that the money that-you claim Grand Terrace will gain from the OAC will be offset by the many additional costs it will bring-to the City of Grand Terrace. For starters, .you've got to have a lot more police. Right there, it's going to be a lot more. than what you claim you're going to benefit in tax revenues from this project. You_talk about monitoring the landscape for two years. First of all, you've got competition all over the place and this project is very likely not going to be successful particularly if the economy goes down, and people can't afford all these toys, Mr. Megna. We will be sitting there with empty real estate, no maintenance, no monitoring and the law requires that you have to be able to enforce and monitor the mitigations you recommend in your report, and many of them you cannot enforce. Barton Road was the entrance to Grand Terrace. The inability of the city to develop that commercially while you're evicting people from their homes is criminal. And now you want to start down by our house and have a grand entrance for Grand Terrace right through the residents with all of these boats and motorcycles and everything else. That's inappropriate. And who do you think is going to pay for the maintenance if these buildings are empty. No one should support a big project like the OAC without personally reviewing the EIR's and making sure that they personally understand the issues and facts. Obviously, you also ignored some concerns by some people in the Final Impact Report if you actually read them before adopting the statement of overriding consideration. You are also disregarding the oral testimony that has not yet been completed. This demonstrates a complete disregard for the rights of everyone living in this city. It is very offensive to me to be told how glad you are that so many residents are coming to your meetings and speaking out. Your actions prove differently. How do you expect us to have any confidence in or respect for the members of the Planning Commission or the City Council? All of us need to decide what would be best for this City. The City should not be controlled by developers or other 6 who live outside of the city who may do damage to our health and well being forever. It is incredibly irritating to me to have city officials assuring people that the issues that have been raised have been, properly addressed and that they are not significant problems. Your responses to those of us to have submitted written concerns which are part of the Final EIR were insulting. You treated us as though we had not read the reports. You quoted over and over the information from the reports that we have already read. The information in the reports had caused our concerns. You didn't properly address our concerns and resolve the issues. People need to understand that responses to the City Hall Blue Mountain paper are biased, censored and inaccurate to say the least. There are many other ways to make use of this important land and to bring in more income for the city. You in my opinion have not thought about other possibilities. I do not think the money that the city already gets is being used as effectively as it should.be. Any one who supports this outrageous OAC project should be fired or recalled immediately before they permanently destroy Grand Terrace as a residential community. If you would like to see these charts, these are three charts blown up for you that represent different types of emissions. All of them are significant, it's just which thing is that is way over what the law requires. Here, we've got emissions for CO: 5,735 and the threshold is 550? That's not significant. We're supposed to believe that. You've got that same number for ROD's on this chart. The bottom line is that you can't make a decision on a report until you've heard and addressed everything and corrected everything in the report. I am not naive enough to believe that you are going to protect Michigan for two years and then in another couple of years, make it four lanes and destroy our property. You're headed in the wrong direction. And I hate being hereto be perfectly busy, and I hate that I have to keep coming here because I can't trust you. Doug-Wilson: Ms. Farley; I have a question for you: The document that you.are talking about in relation to something that has been adopted for the EIR, I don't know of anything that has been adopted in relation to the EIR. Now, it may be proposed to be adopted, but this body... Patricia Farley: No no! This is what was handed out and it's says that you have decided. Doug Wilson: No. I think that what you will find is, usually, the in the agenda, it will say we recommend an adoption or whatever, but what this body is doing in E-04-03 is making recommendations in relation to the Environmental Impact Report, so it hasn't happened. Patricia Farley; There is a proposal to the Council that it is more of a benefit to the city than the negatives, and that's not true, and you don't have enough information, you don't information, you don't have accurate information. How can you make that statement until you have a final report that's correct? Doug Wilson: No. what I am saying is, there hasn't been any action. Patricia Farley: Okay. This, I got at your meeting, and it says there was and I feel that have been treated that way so you'll have to excuse me. I hope it hasn't been decided, but have no reason to believe that it hasn't. I think that I am being treated just as, whatever they have to do. Marion Terry 12385 Vivienda 7 I just moved here about six years ago, and one of the things I was told that the philosophy of the town was to keep it quiet little peaceful town and they don't even let drive thru's in Grand Terrace, because we don't want people just running through our town and running right out. And yet, we are talking about parking lots for 5,000, were talking about 30,000 people coming and going a day. That sounds like a lot of people running through our town and I would love to keep it nice, peaceful and quiet. I do live close to Michigan, so I feel that this is against the philosophy of our town. Also, I am real concerned about the high school. Its going to be proposed in that general area, and your just asking kids to take off of campus and check out the trails and fun stuff there, and I don't' think the high school kids will need any other reason to ditch school and take off. Mario Torres 22109 Mavis I live at the corner of Mavis and Michigan and have lived there for 21 years. Since we have a trucking company across from us, I get a lot of dirt and rocks on my lawn. So I don't appreciate that either, and so now you guys are going to build something, which we don't need in Grand Terrace, I don't' think we need it. Does anyone else think we-need it? The last meeting, you indicated that you were going to have an off ramp at De Berry. But there is one at Barton Road which is less than two tenths of a mile. Doug Wilson: Actually, we can answer this after the public testimony and answer your question, but we will answer the question and give you the information with regard to the on and off ramps. Mario Torres: Okay. Plus, the noise and pollution and traffic in that area. I go to bed about _ 9 o'clock, and we're gonna hear boats and jet-skis at 10 'o clock still, it's kind of hard for me to go to sleep that early. I hear the noise of the trains not too far from my house, so I don't think we need this. I hear many people saying that we need this. We do not need it. I've been here 21 years as I have indicated earlier. I used to go down the streets here and Grand Terrace. Grand Terrace is too small to have something like this. You.guys talk about this building this, building that; has the City Council thought of maybe opening a boys and girls club for the City of Grand Terrace. We have a good baseball park, and a good soccer club, but we need something for the kids that do not play soccer or baseball. I think a boys and girls club would be great for that area. Forget the boats, forget the buildings, forget the lake, we don't need it and it will cause more problems. I work for the County of Riverside, and I know how the board of supervisors do things, and I know that they get cut- backs. To me, it seems that people are getting cutbacks here and it's not fair to the City of Grand Terrace. Do something for the kids. Not to bring more people to the City. The pollution is bad enough as it is in this area. We don't need that here. Janelle Neil 22670 Main Street I stand here and I'm kind of embarrassed that there is not more young people here. But nonetheless. I have lived here since I was in 7th grade. I went to Terrace Hills and I went to Colton High. I stand here with a different opinion that most people because I have grown up here and I don't have anything against a this small community. But the truth is that there _ is not open real estate in Grand Terrace right now. It doesn't look like we're going to have any decrease in population. The population is going to grow regardless. Whether its real estate, or we're going to have something like the OAC. There's going to be more cars, and 8 we are going to need to have something for the streets because it's going to get crowded. Now, coming back to my point, I believe that a high school in Grand Terrace is very necessary, because I grew up at Colton High School, and the truth is, there needs to be smaller classes for your kids. Its better sense, you need smaller classes, because if you want your kids and your grandkids to have a better education, you need to open .your minds. The community is going to grow and it is a good thing, it can be a good thing, or you can look at it negatively no matter what. Honestly, I think that the high school is coming and I know high school kids, it wasn't that long ago that I was there, and the truth is, the kids, everybody should have somewhere to go and something to entertain them. No matter what, there will be kids who will make trouble in the community. If you have nothing here'for them that they actually would care to do, there's going to be problems and you're going to be worried about what they will do after school. We need to consider that growth can be looked on as a bad thing, but it can also be a good thing, so I think we need to take the pros and cons and everybody should open their minds and consider that this may be the best thing for the community and for your kids and grandkids. They need to know that you care that they have,a good education.. And somewhere to go where they actually want to go to. If we had something like this a long time ago, I know that I and a lot of my friends would have stayed out of trouble, and a lot of my friends would have not done as many drugs and drank alcohol as they were doing in high school. It is a different opinion-but I am sticking to it and I just think that we need to consider that this may just be a good thing. Wayne Youngman 22574,Van Buren I think that what you are saying is a voice from the City and not from the Planning Commission or the City Council. It's for the citizens and it's a voice that's strong that needs to be:listened to and you need to understand where they are coming from. With regard to the reservoir. It is an area in which people play in. It is going to increase the level-of pollutants on a daily basis. What is the impact from the 1215 with traffic that is stopped 40% of the time during the day at rush house. Railroad locomotives, we have a,prevailing westerly wind in this town all of the time. It's not going to change.unless we get a condition of the Santa Ana's out of the north. All that pollution is going to go in there into a great big catch basin. Who is going to assure that the quality of that water to operate a jet ski in when someone goes into that water; is it going to be the responsibility of the developer, is it going to be the city? I cannot say how this project to provide the income that you say that it will. If the developer is so sure that one million dollar a year income, then let them put up into escrow two million dollars and two years after the facility becomes fully operational, if the city has made one million dollars per year for those two years, that the developer will get that escrow fund back, if not, then it should go to the city. I This project is nothing but a dream. But I think that the citizens that have spoken here and at the City Council consider it more of a scheme. Thank you. Diane Kaplonik 12510 Michigan live in the infamous pink house on the corner. We have been wanting to do major construction on our home, and I am concerned about Van Buren and Michigan and the widening of the streets. I am not going to put in $40,000 into my home just to have it destroyed. I am eventually going to lose property with the proposed homes coming into the 9 Highgrove area. Now I am worried about Van Buren. Why can't you cull de sac Van Buren to keep the traffic from coming in. There is a way that it can be done and there's no reason why it cannot be done. I am also concerned about the dirt bikes that are really not listed in your plan and I am also concerned about drowning in the lake. High school kids will come up drinking, end up drowning and then we're screwed. I am concerned about the traffic that will come up and down Van Buren. I don't want to lose my house, because that's what's going to happen. Dave Sadler 12233 Michigan live in the eyesight of Commerce Way. If you were to take a drive down Commerce Way, you see a lot of tilt up manufacturing versus a master plan such as this. Which would you rather see, a bunch of tilt ups along the 215, or something manufactured like this. I will go for this. When I first heard about this project, I didn't like the sound of it because of the increase of traffic and noise, and some pollution problems. I came to the last meeting to see what was going on with this project, and I liked the presentation. It seems to be pretty well planned out. Some of the environmental concerns needs to be worked out. If there is anything to do with water pollution, follow the impact statements all the way. I have worked in a fire department for most of my life and I am involved with hazardous materials and I've seen what corporations do when they make mistakes with environmental impacts studies, and they pay dearly. Overall, this seems like a good project because it is well planned out. If the tilt ups are done, it's going to be spot pieced like what is currently on Commerce Way. The landscaping will not be done, the added roads will not be done, and a new on and off ramp will not be done. The end result will be major traffic. This area is planned as commercial already and you're not going to change that. The City Council is not going to change that to a residential area unless you get a huge amount of feedback from the citizens which probably will not happen. Otherwise, this place would be packed. People that are here are impacted by this area because they live in this area. Some people will lose portions of their property and I feel for that. I may lose some of mine also because I am right on Michigan. But my opinion and my family's opinion is this area is going to be developed one way or the other. Think about which is best, master plan or piece meal.. If you haven't looked down Commerce Way, I urge you to go down there; it is not a very pretty site. This is beautiful. That's my opinion and the opinion of my family. Jeffrey McConnell 21758 Walnut Avenue At the presentation of the last meeting, I noticed a few things that I would like to comment on, I would like to review it. The removal of the Barton off ramp, to put on Commerce Way and add 10,000 cars is foolish and I think that if you do this project it would be wise to leave both off ramps. Everyone's concerned with the water pollution. I think if you were to look at Diamond Lake and what they are doing, and they won't allow these type of water craft on due to pollution of the two cycle motors do. Also, look at Lake Perris who allow this type of water craft and the types of pollution problems that they are having. Those are my two main concerns. Thank you. James Farley 12818 Darwin 10 I would like to start out by saying that I am probably the last person to say change is not for the best. Because when change is done appropriately, you can get some great benefits to the community. The issues-that I see is that if change is done simply for change, you don't necessarily gain anything from it; you just hurt those around it. We have heard a lot of the �- issues about the environment, the inconveniences to the community and the increase in traffic. We haven't talked much about whether the OAC is a good business strategy. From my point of view, there are a lot of issues. The main point that I can see why the city is trying to push this project through, is to increase revenue to the city by putting this much money and emphasis into something, you would hope that you get the proper payback from it. It,was stated that one of the major objectives of this project was to provide a long term revenue. I have a couple of concerns. One being that it was stated that 500 jobs would be brought into the community. That sounds great. I love hearing that there could be more jobs brought into a community, however, I would guess that probably 98% of these jobs are going to be minimum wage jobs. This city is based around homeowners. Homeowners cannot afford paying for a house on a minimum wage job. So what is this going to require? This is going to require that I continue to drive towards the Los Angeles area and it's not going to improve my life at all. The next issue that I have is that it is a proven fact that when the economy starts to falter, recreational.equipment sales is the first thing to go. When people don't have money, they are not going to buy recreational equipment. This becomes a questionable source for long term revenue .for the city. If the economy for the Country starts to go down, then the revenue to the city will go down. It was also stated clearly last week that:when the economy goes down when the state begins to lose funding, who does it put pressure on? The Cities. So you're getting hit from both sides. The city is not getting revenue from its 'development and at the.same time, the state is requiring more funding from the city. It doesn't make economic sense in that regard. Third, as a business strategy, price is the bottom line when you're coming to retail sales. Especially for big ticket items, and that's what your talking about here. You're talking about selling RV's, boats and motorcycles. These are not trivial purchases. If somebody can go down the street and buy an RV for 1% less than they could buy here, they will go there and they won't care if there are trees or a lake surrounding the RV, they are going to care about the price. It has been mentioned that the dealerships down the street are the most beneficial and do very well. I drove by there and I looked- at these facilities. They have about two palm trees with a parking lot, and they cram these RV's as close as they can. They do this to reduce overhead, and that is what this kind of business is based on. The dealer with the lowest overhead can sell the product at a lower price, therefore, gaining sales. However, you are talking about a facility that has trees, landscaping and a lake with potentially extremely high insurance that these retailers may have to pay to be able to test motorcycles and boats. All of these things will increase the costs of these types of items. would waver that their sales price could increase by 5-10 percent. Who will pay more for these types of goods when it's going to cost them so much more? They do not gain anything from having a beautiful surrounding. r The biggest concern about the project is that it's proposed as the only solution for the city. The only two alternatives that were presented in the meeting two weeks ago was putting housing in the area as well as warehousing facilities. I would think that everyone in this 11 room would agree that neither of these are valuable decisions for valuable things to do along that property. There are already warehouses in that area. There are so many other business ventures that could be successful. Take Irvine, for instance. I think it's a very beautiful City and it is one of the most affluent City's in the whole of Orange County. People commute to that area because of the well paying jobs in that area. They are technical jobs that people can afford to live off of. Why can't you think about bringing these type of jobs in to Grand Terrace? I know a lot of people that make that drive down into Los Angeles every day that would prefer to do the similar type of job right here in our own city. That would reduce traffic and would help out the economy. Businesses from Los Angeles would want to come into this direction because this is where the employees live that travel so far. It made me very upset when I heard that this is the only other option that this city can think of to use this land for. Thank you. Lee Swertfeger 12438 Michigan I have two properties adjoining this project. One is my home and one is my business. First of all, I would like to commend the Planning Department. I think that they have worked hard on this project and I think that they are trying to do what they think is best for the City. However, I cannot be in favor for it because I don't think that it is going to help my company very well. I hope that you prove me wrong. am,sorry for using your valuable time at this meeting in my behalf, but at the last meeting, my,company was brought up quite a few times and its really bothered me because I've lived in Grand Terrace all of my life. I've got a lot of friends in Grand. Terrace, and for people that don't know me at all to say that Grand Terrace snuck.in the trucking company on Michigan Street without telling any of us, when we had so many meetings and I fought for five years to get my business started up. It really hurt me to have people talk about me in the way that they did. My Dad had trucks in Grand Terrace in 1942. There is a friend here tonight that had trucks in Grand Terrace before any of you were here. Where the bank is in Grand Terrace was a large trucking company. hear complaints now and then about diesel smoke. I don't think that any of you people know that there is a huge generator running here 24 hours on diesel. It is not, my diesel smoke you are selling. We do not own any trucks that are legal to go down the road. We can only move trailers on our property. We call them yard goats and they do run and make very little diesel trucks that pass my business and make deliveries. There are at least four times as many truck coming in and out down the street than there is at my place. We had orange, avocado, walnut, corn, and watermelon groves in Grand Terrace. We owned 55 acres at one time in Grand Terrace. My parents owned a 3,000 acre cattle ranch in Missouri and owned a Chevy dealership and lost it all during the depression. They came to California because they heard about many great things in California. One of the first things they did here was to get into the trucking business, and then slowly started buying property to get back into farming. We really enjoyed it, and as the houses came in, it slowly became impossible and couldn't survive. I hear complaints everyday, where did the orange groves go. Why did our orange groves leave Grand Terrace? Well, there is no question in my mind that it's because the bedroom community that moved into Grand Terrace. They threw trash in our orange groves and then turned around and complained about it and made us clean it up. People complained about weeds and we cleared them, and when 12 during the time we would clear the weeds; we would get complaints about the dust. That's why we do not have farms in Grand Terrace any more. My Dad got tired of it here and decided to buy a 400 acre ranch, and right at that time, they sold all of the property except for our home to buy this ranch. My Dad had an accident while moving equipment in Grand Terrace and was killed on Michigan Street. Again, we lost the ranch to make a long story short and everything was lost and my Mom had to sell her place so she could survive. She bought a cabin in Wrightwood and lives there now. bought this little parcel on Michigan Street because it was in the M1 Zone. At that time, I didn't know for sure what I wanted to do but I knew that I wanted to be in some kind of a light.industrial. business. At the timel it was the only thing that I could afford to do, and at that time I asked three friends to loan me money. It took us many years to get that parcel paid off. I have had a current business license at that location since 1970. Today, we have 43 employees, which none of them are at minimum wage. Last year, we did 2.9 million in taxable income. We also do a service for Grand Terrace because we let the truck owners from Grand Terrace to park their trucks on our property. We charge rent of course, but we give them a place to park so that they are not bothering the citizens of Grand Terrace. For those of you that told the Planning Commission at the last meeting about our trucking company, I cannot believe that there were mailers sent out, local paper ads, and numerous meetings both.planning and council meetings and this went on forever. I just can't believe that you people can tell the commission that my business was shoved down your throats.. My children are now running my company and I am very proud of them. We go to trade shows and we think that we have done a good job. We turned a junk yard into a more .attractive place. We have spent over a million dollars in improvements this year and we are still not done. For our neighbors to complain the way they have has really hurt me. Two and a half years ago, I was told the city would get Edison to move the power poles in front of my property so that I could finish the paving. At the last meeting, you told the public that there were no plans on widening Michigan Street. So I think you need to give back the last 20 foot easement that I gave and move the sidewalks back so.that we don't have to move the power poles. Thank you. Doug Wilson: Mr. Swertfeger, I know you as a good law abiding citizen. If this Commission has ever voiced anything or for that matter, the citizens of this community has voiced anything unknowing in relation to you or your family, I apologize for that, because it's definitely not the intention and it should not be the intention of this community. Barney Karger 11668 Bernardo Way I would not sit at the Commission table and take the guff that they take for a hundred times what they get paid. Because I found out that they get a fantastic salary of$50.00 a month. It is an appointed job and they are not elected but rather appointed by the City Council. They work very hard and take a whole bunch of guff from everybody including me, because they are not always right but I am. They have all been members of Grand Terrace for a long time. None of the people down here are members of Grand Terrace. With regard to Michigan, something seems fuzzy here. I know that for many years, there has been a plan for widening Michigan otherwise the curbs would have been put in wider. But I have not 13 heard from the Planning Director whether or-not that is the ultimate width that is planned for Michigan after we put in these 2,500 houses that I am not building, and I would like an answer as soon as possible. Michigan was designed for two lanes in each direction plus parking. r' People are fooling around with the figure of 30,000 people in this area. Figures don't lie, but liars figure. Planners and people like that. I think that 30,000 cars includes everybody coming off to go to work in Grand Terrace. To go to Loma Linda, all of the people that are normally taking that Barton Road off ramp now, I am sure that it includes those people. Doug Wilson: Barney let me go ahead and make a comment. I am sure that it means 30,000 trips, not 30,000 people. Barney Karger: Yeah, so it's 15,000 each way. There are so many people who get on and off on Barton Road. This should help the traffic congestion there. Yes, we may get 30,000 people in that place at one time but I doubt it. There was a mention about water contamination. You people have not been here long enough in Grand Terrace to understand. The mud and the dirt in Grand Terrace is Adobe. That is why the ses pools and leach lines no longer work and a sewage system need to be put into place. The Adobe and sand ends at about 37 feet down. I don't think that the lake is going to be 37 feet. The adobe is what they make man made ponds and lakes out of. Water will not seep down into the adobe and into the first layer of sand. The reason that we had to build sewers was because the sess pools went bad because the rotten builders would not go down the extra five feet to hit the sand. I did. And that is why that very few of mine ever went bad. _ . Jobs-were brought up. Most of the jobs will be sales. Most sales jobs pay very good. If it's not sales, it going to'be mechanics. Most mechanics make a pretty good living. I wasn't sure if I liked this project or not, but the idea is great. It would be a beautiful area, and for all of the people who are complaining, traffic builds property values. :. As we get more people in to Grand Terrace, property values will go even higher than they are_right now. Property values in Grand Terrace are much lower than they should be in comparison with most of the rest of San Bernardino County. My main problem is not the environment, because that is a bunch of B.S. anyway. I speak as developer who has had to prepare a bunch of those idiot papers or toilet papers, as I call them. What is the plan for getting a developer? Because it is to my understanding that we are going to get a developer to take this plan and build it with his money and not the City's money. Is it going to be the developer's money that will be putting in all of these improvements? If that is true, then I will back this project. If it is the City which is not a business man and does not know the first thing about business that will be putting in the improvements-witness their redevelopment stuff; I don't like anything that they do. No governmental agency of any sort regardless of whether it's a little city or a whole country-the Federal Government, can do anything right in business or basically anything right. That's it. Don Farley 12251 Michigan welcome this opportunity to make a few more comments from last week. I wasn't really planning to make any tonight until I saw the article in the Blue Mountain Outlook. I would like to make a couple of other comments in addition to what I have prepared. At the last meeting, it was very clear that the people promoting this had never read the EIR based on 14 some of the comments that they made. It is quite an oversight. The issue with pollution of the drinking water supply is a concern, because if I remember correctly, it's stated that those lakes are intended for recharging the ground water, so consequently, any pollution that goes there is going to go in. The other comment is in regard to someone saying that this a place for young people to meet. I don't believe that this is the intent of it at all and it will certainly end up that way. Anyway, moving on, I did not plan on making any comments because most of my concerns related to noise, pollution, congestion and a hand out of the place have been addressed over and over again. However, I did read in the Blue Mountain Outlook regarding the project in the June 2004 issue. It seemed clear that the City continues to misrepresent the project and does not take the comments and effected parties seriously. I am assuming when I say that. The Outlook actually represents the opinion of the City, and I presume that it does. Much of the information in the article was inaccurate or misleading and I will comment only on the few or most obvious issues. The City has done-a dismal job in notifying residents about the proposed project in an attempt to correct this,:.spent almost two hours at the beginning of the public comment meeting on May 20, 2004, in a presentation by staff about the project. This presentation should have been promoted and delivered long before the meeting for public comment. The article implies that many attendees at the public comments meeting on May 20, left because of lack of interest as the meeting progressed. In fact, people were aggravated with the long staff presentation before public comments were allowed, and left-because they had other commitments-. The article tended to depreciate the involvement of the many individuals who took time from their busy schedules to attend the meeting. Furthermore, it attempted to deemphasize the fact that over 90% of the speakers of the meeting were.against the project and implied that there was some sort of conspiracy to get people to attend. In spite of the-long staff presentation that seemed to intend to discourage the many attendees at standing room only from staying to comment, it was amazing how many actually stayed until the end of the meeting which was around 11:00 to 11:30. The article states that there will be no increase in traffic in the area since the current Barton Road on and off ramp for the northbound 215 will be moved to within the project. This argument:.is fallacious, since most visitors;to the site are likely to return from the direction they arrived, therefore, most visitors must go to Barton Road to return to their destination. All they have to do to verify this is to consider your trips to the Galleria Mall in Riverside, and I doubt if any of you would continue on to Corona. Furthermore, moving the on/off ramp will require that all Grand Terrace traffic to and from the Northbound 215 must pass through the maze of roads through the project and there will be at least three stop lights to do that. That can't be a benefit to the downtown area of Grand Terrace. The project is promoted as adding class and beauty to the community. This hard to believe. When did a development with dirt sidewalks seem classy? When was the last time that you saw an area that sells motorcycles and watercraft that seemed classy? That isn't enough, consider an area that maintains vehicles and has RV storage. This project is promoted as a major revenue generator. I am not an expert in this area, but my observation is that most,of the types of businesses being promoted tend to me in low rent areas. As presented, this would not be a low rent venue. Businesses in the project would pay to maintain this high overhead project with lake test tracks and costly landscaping by an assessment district. So businesses that are already low margin would be at a competitive disadvantage. This does not make sense. The RV sales operation to the north can be used as an example as how successful a project can be. This is no doubt true, but this is a bare bones operation. And if I observe them correctly, some of the buildings appear to be portable. Does anyone see anything attractive or classy about that project? Either this project will fail or even worse. 15 Most jobs created would be low pay and not compatible with the image that the city seems interested in promoting. It is implied that zoning is compatible with proposed uses and that other uses would not be compatible. With proper justification, zoning can be changed to justify any reasonable use. It is implied that this is the only project that can be considered for the site, and if it is denied, chaos would prevail. This is clearly not true and we need a creative look at options. I would like to give some examples. Grand Terrace is a great location. I grew up here from the 50's and it is essential to almost everything in the Inland Empire. It is difficult to understand why development has been so slow in this area. I remember as a kid it was expected that Barton Road would be developed as a business area and still hasn't. Development of a business center with corporate offices should be feasible and would make sense, considering its location. The buildings themselves could add class to the area, and would require minimal additional landscaping and associated overhead. All you would have to look at places such as Irvine, and Hospitality Lane in San Bernardino, and many other business areas. Besides that, it would bring high end jobs as well as the low end jobs that would come with this project. Commerce Center Drive needs to be routed since it doesn't exist. Such that, its connection with Barton Road is improved and can connect directly with Main Street and maybe even Center Street, Iowa, and the on/off ramp at La Cadena. Proper routing at Commerce Center Drive would make it possible to divert car and all truck traffic from Michigan Street, and thus allow it to maintain at two lanes and retain its residential character. In regard to the trucking company, I happen to be a person who has mentioned that it has become an annoyance. I can say that I cannot blame them because they have no way of getting in and.:out of their business. But Commerce Center Drive could be used as a route if...it is designed properly. . I understand that Stater Bros. has plans to move its operations in west Grand Terrace to a new`location. If this is true, Colton maybe interested in redevelopment of that site. Grand Terrace should contact Colton to explore the possibility. of developing their site jointly. If joint development were feasible, it might be desirable to construct an-overpass across the freeway to join to two sites and thus allow access to the project site from the existing Barton Road-on/off ramps and possibly those at La Cadena. In conclusion, I think that everyone here wants Grand Terrace to develop in a way that is compatible with its character and that we can all be proud of. My opinion, the proposed project will be neither and should be re-considered. Doug Wilson: Thank you Mr. Farley. You are obviously well read and you have actually studies these issues and appreciated your comments at the last meeting. Government cooperation, though, I'm wondering if that isn't an oxymoron somehow. Terry McGuire 22525 Franklin Street Just as recently as today, I got a notice about my motor home. And it has come up at this meeting that motor homes, See Doos, boats, and everything else are not beautiful for this town, and then we want to put in something like this. Isn't that a little hypocritical? I find it a bit offensive. My second concern is just recently, my motor home windows got shot out by a bunch of kids and it happened with a lot of other people in town. My question is where were the police to help me out with that. Just recently my sister fired a guy at work and he stalks her 16 and is going to her home. I had to go to her home, and for four hours the other day, there wasn't a police officer in this town while my sister was being stalked. You can't make the people of this town safe now much less put something like that here. You have responsibility as citizens of this town and as officers of this town to make everybody in this room and my new baby safe before that goes in. Thank you. Betty Guzman 23202 Glendora Drive I do,not live by the project but I do drink the water. It will effect me in many ways. I do care about and love this City. The reason why I came up here is because I want to let you know, Mr. Wilson, it's very difficult to come up here. A lot of these people don't come here very;,often and consider this a once in a lifetime thing that their out here speaking out. So it's very difficult.so when Mr. Torres came up here to speak, it was really not appropriate for you to snap at him the way you did. He had every right to ask Mr. Koontz, the man responsible for this project to have the decency to turn around the heat. You are all taking the heat for this man. You are not responsible for what's before you and everybody is firing at you. This is the man who came with this project and wants to shove it down our throats. He never came to us and said, Grand Terrace, we have a Plan A, outdoor adventure park, Plan B, a golf course, Plan C, this or that. He just came and said that's what we're going to do,.:no he never did say that, excuse me, we caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. He just=came and said that this is what we are going to do. Doug Wilson: Excuse me. If this is going to be the tone of your testimony, please just keep it to the impacts of the project. I am desperately tired of hearing personal attacks. Betty Guzman: Well that's my whole statement, sir. This gentleman wanted to speak to the man responsible and you snapped at him. Doug Wilson:'Wait a minute. That gentleman (Mr. Koontz) works for the City Council, so he has no special responsibility than anybody else in the room. I don't think I understand what your point is. Betty Guzman: My point is that this gentleman came up here and asked Mr. Koontz to have the decency to turn around and face us when we are speaking about how it's affecting our lives and you kind of snapped at him. My point is just that it is very difficult to come up here and speak to you and the way you snapped at him is not right. This gentleman is responsible for the whole project and he should have the decency to face us because it is our lives he is affecting while he is not living in this town. Doug Wilson: The City Council is the responsible party for.this project. This gentleman is an employee of the Council. Betty Guzman: I understand that sir, and I also understand that this gentleman used city funds, all of our tax dollars to purchase the land that he wants to build his little toy park. -- Doug Wilson: He does not have the authority to buy any land for the City of Grand Terrace. Betty Guzman: Okay, this project was his whole idea and be brought it before the Council and they rubber stamped it. I don't know how you guys did it, but it was his baby that he 17 got the land and now he is developing it. My whole point is that it is affecting our lives so I would like for him to at least face us and look at us in the eye and not turn his back to us and leave town every time at 5:00. Doug Wilson: Okay. Did you have anything you wanted to talk about in relation to the - project? Betty Guzman: Yes. The Environmental Impact that the other gentleman, Barney Karger said that the impact would be irrelevant. He doesn't live on that part of town and he may not be hearing all of the noise and breathing all of the pollution. I know you all have a very difficult job and we know that you all live here and we have a lot of respect for you and we know that you will do the right thing. Doug Wilson: Now, is there anyone else who hasn't had a opportunity to speak for or against the project? Robert Kirthner 12023 Preston Street When I came to Grand Terrace, someone said that citizens don't like people driving = through. Well, I had to drive through to find my house. I have lived here for two years, and I liked Grand Terrace and I like to see it develop in a good stage. This Outdoor Adventures Center should be the Outdoor Sales Center. Because it will not do me any good cause I'm not into outdoor stuff, skis or anything, although I am an Aquarian I like water and I've been a swimmer all of my life, but it isn't going to do me any good. I think my neighbors down`in Michigan need more improvement to their surrounding, but not this kind of stuff. When came.to Grand Terrace, I know that a few people have noticed that where I live at I think is the only part of the city that has light. The rest of them don't have any streets lights and was wondering what you plan on doing about that. Doug Wilson: 'As a matter of fact, I can probably answer that. When this community first started, it was also in the process of building a project and it was mandated in the tract additions that any developer that was going go into a project had to underground all of the utilities and also had to create the street lights in relation to an approved street light plan. You are right, there are a lot of dark areas that have slowly but surely been worked on so far as better security. Right now, the City is in a quandary like a lot of communities where there looking at whether or not it's a better idea to brightly light the sky or whether it's better to be a little bit choosy in relation in how we light things because of light contamination. Robert Kirthner: Well, I like to see what's behind me when I walk around. Getting back to the Adventures Center, what is gonna cost you maintain it, about $500,000. I'm just guessing about it. It's not going to do my family any good. And I don't think any of my neighbors will benefit from it. Whatever is good-my neighbors, I want it to be good for me too. That's the way I look at it. Cynthia Bidney 12219 Pascal I have more questions than I have comments about this plan. Correct me if I am wrong. This plan is more of a general plan than a plan set in concrete. This plan a great idea to beautify the City. In fact, other businesses could be put in there in place of all of the RV's or whatever. 18 Doug Wilson: Yes. If that is your question. I did have a discussion of three or four times, and basically what this is, is a planning tool only. Now, it's set up as guidelines and it's specifically set up so that if a.developer or a series of developers came in, they know what it is that they can or cannot do within certain guidelines, but on top of that, you have the opportunity at any given time to this body as well as this community has the opportunity to review every one of those projects that come in; so far as all the way down to the paint color on the rafters for that matter, or whether it's appropriate for what you want in your community, so it's a guideline. It is similar to a specific plan which is probably something that .you recognize. The specific plan is a same concept as an infill area with special circumstances in relation to traffic, pollution and all of the rest of impacts that you want to be able to address. And so, the community has been wise enough to recognize that and say what are we going to do with this thing rather than let it become something that slowly but surely dribbles off, let's look at it. We've got zoning that is in place now but is that what we want to do, and so on. But it's a planning guideline and every project must meet a specific criteria and be reviewed by this commission as well as the community. Cynthia Bidney: Okay, but this would also be an opportunity for our community members to stand up and say I want to be a part of that project and have an ice cream parlor there, or I want to open some other business right? This is in fact, everybody's idea and it's not a war against RV's and whatever, correct? Virginia Harford would like to bring up a point that has been bothering me. The local 99 cent store is not a 99 cent store, and it really bothers me. Doug WWilson:So noted. Thank you. Patricia Farley personally wanted to take an opportunity to say to Mr. Swertfeger that I never meant to personally attack you. But we did not get notices in the mail. You did some nice things there but I would have preferred to see you business closer to the freeway. But it was never a personal attack, but I understand what you want to do in your property. We did not get the notice in the mail. ***Testimony at this point was not heard from the podium, and was difficult to hear on tape.*** Doug Wilson: Your understanding was this would be given over to a developer and handed cart blanc what would happen in relation to the project. That is not correct. This community has the opportunity to decide what is put in place in its community. Any plan that is created in relation to this guideline still has to come before this body as a review, and/or it has to come in front of all of the departments so far as building and safety, fire and forestry. Might I also add that I asked the Community Development Director last week to specifically read the list of approvals that were required of any venture that was to take place in here and had to inherit that. I specifically asked for that because I wanted to try clarify that this is not one of those circumstances where it get taken out of the community's hands. And it isn't also taken out of the departments hands. In other words, if a fire hydrant needs to be- put in a place, that fire hydrant still happens. There's no benign 19 exercise of authority. If anything, unfortunately, most community circumstances like redevelopment agencies are subject to more scrutiny as your participation has proven. So it's a different situation that may have been understood before, but you are definitely required to go through the approval process. Dorothy Farley What bothers us is that we have not been told much of anything. Did you know that the 17th of April, my daughter picked up a Blue Mountain Outlook in our driveway that was the first that we knew anything about it, and it seemed to us that the City or somebody was going on and planning this stuff but wasn't letting us know what was going on and I think that:we should have been enlightened. I think there is still many people in Grand Terrace who.really don't know anything about it. Ed Courtney 22474 De Berry would like to speak about the law of unintended consequences. What happens very often is that.we make a plan and something goes wrong later. For instance, this man's trucking company and .he's done a wonderful job of that and has provided employment; -and that was a good thing. But what happened was there was an unintended consequence I'm sure nobody thought about how those trucks had to turn when they came off of Barton Road and made that right hand turn onto Michigan. Having sat there on the corner, I almost gotten wiped out several times by these huge trucks. Sometimes, people would have to-back their car up so that the truck could make that turn. The city then had to come and widen that street. I'm sure that a portion of the taxes that he paid helped widen that street. But it was an unintended consequence and it needs to be considered how you. are about to do something that dwarfs his project. I'm sure that there will be unintended consequences. These people said that they didn't receive notice. But they did receive notice was in all of the newspapers in tiny little print. And the schematics were in tiny little print and it properly -explained, I am sure but nobody read it. So constructively they did have notice but they didn't actually notice because they weren't aware of it. Now it seems to me, that your dilemma right now is.whether or not to vote up or down on this thing. My question to you is do you have,to.make that decision today? Is it going to be made right now or can you put it off right now. Can it be delayed until maybe a few more people are made aware of the plan and it's consequences. Virginia Ogawa 12556 Michigan think that the Planning Commission needs to understand that in Grand Terrace we have families. We are families, and not just business people. Our children are grown, but we have children on our neighborhood streets. This is not going to be feasible for them to enjoy. The Sea Doos are going to be tried out by the people who are buying them. The dirt bikes and the ATV's are for the people who are buying them. Not necessarily for the families of Grand Terrace to go and enjoy. We have Sea Doos and we have boats. But it's not going to be for Sunday afternoons for the family. Another thing that I would like for you to consider is you have these people coming in to our town to buy these Sea Doos, dirt bikes and ATV's. There's going to be accidents. Who is going to be liable for the law suits that are going to come? There will be accidents. You read about them all of the time in the paper. This project is beautiful, but I don't see having to go to the OAC to buy a motor home when I can get a better-deal at the bottom of the hill. Besides that, you can put in a 20 movie theatre. You can put in a Barnes &Noble bookstore, you can put in retail stores. There's other things that we can do and still make our frontage beautiful and I would hope that you can take that into consideration. Bill Hayes 22114 De Berry The one thing that I have thought about that has concerned me and because we live in a seismic area and I've owned a home with a swimming pool and back in the 70's when that big shaker came through that pool tried to empty itself. And I was wondering what kind of seismic, I mean, thank you to Barney but Adobe is not going to hold up to an earthquake. What is going to happen when we have a pretty good quake come sooner, does that turn into a 12 acre tsunami. Where's the water going to go when we get a title wave in that thing? PJ Anderson 12375 Vivienda Avenue We paid to $84,000 to $87,000 to get this plan. So we've already financed part of this development by just paying that to go ahead and give us this project. So I was unaware at any time that you were trying to get plans on what we might do with that open acreage. Doug Wilson: Let me address that. It's not unusual for communities, I'm sure you have run into it before and for business for that matter; to do a cost of business to be able to explore different opportunities within a community. You've spent a lot more than $84;000 in this community since it was formed to be able to create your community. .It's just a normal thing.: When it comes to traffic studies, sewer and storm drain, that's a normal thing of - doing business. One of the things that the City had been extremely frugal with, has been kind of a mentor system to try to bring in a business or two more importantly, resupply the businesses that are- in the town, because you know we have had a tough time with commercial circumstances within the core of the city sometimes depending on what the economy is like. So it's not unusual for those things to happen. What has happened in the past, is sometimes kindly volunteers have then participated in a program:where they have tried to encourage businesses to come in and your City Manager has done .that kind of circumstance almost daily. So those kinds of things are not unusual. PJ Anderson: I think what I am addressing is that we didn't know only one plan would be forthcoming. This seems to be our only option. We aren't being offered something else with the $80,000 dollars that we have already spent. Patricia Farley You and I had a disagreement at the last meeting on the noticing of residents, and so I went and read the law and'I would like to say that the part that I read is that you had to make a good faith effort, and obviously the community was not informed. And there is another section in the law that says you can put only one notice is some newspaper and it doesn't say that you have to make it big enough for normal people to notice. So my view I that the law argues with itself. But the bottom line is, in the past we got letters. And I had a - right to get a letter about their property. That was our biggest issue. We weren't notified properly and Mr. Koontz told me that it costs too much. I would rather that the money would have been spent before you spent the $80,000 and then, right at the same time I'm 21 getting all of these flyers that the city sends out about the parade and stuff like that. The priorities are wrong. Doug Wilson: The notice that is set up is actually a City Council letter. Any kind of circumstance in relation to noticing things for every community is always the same. What they do is they set up a radius for particular issues. We usually do this stuff in accordance to the law, in fact, that's what we are required to do. If you want more noticing on a particular issue, usually what it requires especially in this kind of circumstance is a budget that can accommodate that and that also means then that the community has to come behind some kind of a city ordinance that changes the noticing procedure. That's something that you would need to bring up at the City Council Meeting. Because it is a part of your Council Ordinance. Diane Espinoza 12794 Michigan Street have lived there for 29 years. I have been following the OAC and what you have been planning and possibly recommending to do, and I've been listening tonight to everyone's questions. The one thing that I didn't hear is when are you going to answer the questions. Doug Wilson: That's what we would like to do once we close the public hearing. We will now close the public testimony and bring it back to the Commission for a motion and or probably plenty of conversation. The,first thing that I would like to do is ask the Staff if they could address some of the issues that were responded to in the, public comments, and if you could just summarize some of those things, because I don't think that everyone in the audience is able to respond or to be able to read it, and I think that they are owned some responses and summarizations. Gary Koontz:, I believe Mr. Megna has a presentation. Ralph Megna: Mr. Chairman, and members of the Commission. The first thing. that I think :that's important to note is that following the previous Commission meeting, we reviewed:the tape and our notes. All of us up here while sometimes we may not be facing the right direction, we're all busy taking notes on everyone's comments. .We identified almost 50 different questions that the public had raised at the previous public meeting and prepared 10 pages of detailed small type answers in an effort to try to give full respect to the questions that got asked. I will not attempt to go through almost 50 questions and their answers, but we did do that and the material has been available here at the City since 5:00 PM last Tuesday. When we went through these questions, some of them appeared to involve misunderstandings about what certain it actually says. One of things that we had heard repeatedly today and heard repeatedly last time is that there would be 30,000 people per day coming to the OAC. If that were true, we would probably have developers lined up from here to Orange County wanting to do this project, but that is not true. This is a misinterpretation of the information that is in the EIR. It is not 30,000 people, it actually 26, 891 vehicle trips. Now its important to understand what a vehicle trip is. I am sure that the Commission is aware of this, but I want to make sure that the audience understands. Vehicle trips are calculated through any of the following ways: Through exit, through entry, driving between buildings, employees coming and going, and trips by local residents. In other words, one person coming from Riverside and going to the OAC and then returning 22 could be two or more or possibly three trips and not one. So the point is that it is not 30,000 people. I would guess that we would estimate the daily number people coming into the OAC is some number less than 10,000, which is still a sizeable number but for a point of comparison, just so everyone understand us, is a stand alone Wal-Mart, will generate 12,000 vehicle trips by itself. Second, there was considerable concern expressed with regard to traffic on Michigan. It is our view that one of the reasons why we have spent some money is looking very carefully how traffic circulates through the area. Those of you who have taken the time to look at the EIR and the Specific Plan know that there are two additional volumes with hundreds of pages of analysis associated with traffic. I know that you don't believe me, but from the very first day that we started this project, we were concerned about what impacts would occur to the residential neighborhoods and have gone through considerable analysis and effort:for a year now trying to mitigate that with a circulation plan that we have developed. I don't,expect you to believe me, but that is the truth, and we have worked hard to keep down the impacts. One of things that is true is that if the circulation plan for the OAC is adopted, the truck traffic on Michigan will significantly be reduced. Why-will that be? It will be because now, the single greatest traffic generator in the area which is Wilidan Pump will have a connection via Van Buren to the extension of Commerce Way. This will allow truck traffic that is coming and going from Willdan Pump to never ever go onto Michigan. 100% of the traffic goes on to Michigan at this time. In the future, none of it has to go to Michigan and can circulate using the extension of Commerce and can come and go from the freeway using;the direct connection of the exit that we are planning at this location. This design is not an accident, this design has been a product of over a year of analysis and hundreds of pages of numerical analysis of where traffic flows. Doug;Wilson: Excuse me. In relation to the Willdan Pump circumstance, about how many trips are being generated now, and not just trucks. Ralph Megna: Total trips by generated by Willdan Pump alone is in excess of 2,000 trips a day. Doug Wilson: What is the percentage of truck traffic? Ralph Megna: Probably about a quarter of trips and that is not a vehicle or person number. **Inaudible** Ralph Megna: Interesting question. You will only have to go through two stop lights. Stop lights may seem like a problem, they actually improve a level of service by regulating the traffic. This route to and from the freeway will probably be a full minute quicker than having to make an unregulated left hand turn on to Michigan and then going to a horribly congested intersection of Barton: This one change will have a dramatic positive impact on the traffic on Michigan. **Inaudible** Ralph Megna: The fact of the matter is that some people particularly those who live in this area may choose to go that route, but those cars will be cars that won't be on Michigan. They will never have to do anything other than cross Michigan in order to get to their home. So total traffic on Michigan again is reduced by being able to take that route. 23 **Inaudible** Ralph Megna: I don't think...Why would someone who is carrying, excuse me, does the Commission want me to respond to the audience? Matt Addington: I understand where you are coming from as a consultant to the City and have been in your shoes before. What I am hearing here is an argumentative tone of voice to the residents of Grand Terrace. And what I think that we ought-to try to go up a little more professional and try not to be argumentative. We want to present facts here tonight. Ralph Megna: Thank you for.the guidance, but I also need to understand; should I be responding to questions or should you relay those questions. Doug Wilson: Why don't we go ahead and answer the overall questions and we've all taken notes and we can take a little time for question an answer at the end. . Once we get the questions from the last meeting answered, then maybe we can come back and revisit the other questions. **Inaudible** Ralph Megna: The arrow there should probably be facing the other direction. Sometimes power point does not give you many arrow options. Traffic going south on the, freeway would have to come to Michigan make a left here and a left here across the Barton Road overpass. One of the improvements associated with the package of freeway improvements here is a widening of the overpass so that it can accommodate additional traffic and do so in a safe manner. _ There was concern with regard to street widening. The key portions of this are is that the only portion of Michigan will be widened will be the 300 feet or so at the intersections of Commerce Way and Barton Road. This project does not require or .propose to widen Michigan Street south of Commerce and currently, residential portions of De Berry, Main, Taylor or Van Buren will be widened as part of this project. Now some of the streets do get widened, for example, Taylor gets widened down by the power plant, which is very far away from any residential area. Van Buren gets widened within the boundaries of the OAC. Doug Wilson: What you just projected to us is that it does also call for a widening of Michigan Street north of Commerce? Is that correct? Ralph Megna: That is correct. That is the only area that this project requires a widening of Michigan. Doug Wilson: I just want to make that clarification. Okay. Ralph Megna: A concern was with how people will get home. People who live up the hill will yes, in fact need to make one or two more turns then they make currently if their exiting from the northbound 215 souhbound travelers will use exactly the same route that they are using now because they will be widening the overpass and that should reduce congestion in that location. Doug Wilson: So that is part of the overall circulation that it would be widened. So that's aside from the proposed Caltrans circumstance. 24 Ralph Megna. Yes. This would all be taking place as part of the OAC and not part of the Caltrans improvements that are ten years or more into the future. Finally, in a program that has been coordinated between SANBAG and the City, the new exit from the northbound 215 along with the intersection of Michigan and Barton and Commerce will have synchronized lights that expedite the flow of traffic. The actual level of service will be better at those locations than what it is now at Barton and Commerce. Noise from the motocross track and boats. One of the things that has been erroneously referred to as a track; it's an off-road trail. And its an area where small off road vehicles including mountain bikes can be tested. These trails aren't a certainty, as determined as you have repeatedly pointed out. Many aspects of this requires separate entitlement actions and this would be one of the things that would require that. As for boat testing, we expect that to be a relatively quiet activity as the lake is not big enough to have more than a couple of boats at a time at very slow speeds. In comparison, the noise generated by almost 200,000 cars a day on the freeway as well as two railroad lines create an ambient sound level which is significantly greater than what the OAC is going to create. Doug Wilson: As a matter of fact, I would like to clarify that. I think that our existing sound levels are in the range of 85 db's at the railroad lots. And as you start to go out, that,-of course starts to quiet down. As one who lives up against the mountains over here, I'm not convinced that they actually quiet_ down, because it's a natural amphitheater. What happens is that the sound hits from the railroad, and then starts to. kind of circle out as it goes:.So that's the way the sound is now. Ralph Megna: There has been expressed concern with regard to the OAC attracting undesirables. We feel that this is unlikely given the fact that this is _a family oriented destination where products and services that are meant to encourage mainstream recreational activities, such as fishing, hiking, boating and that these are generally family oriented things that people do. Proper security is a clear requirement of this project. I don't think that this is likely a place where kids are likely to hang out. In fact, if anything, the OAC is going to be a significant employer of teenagers for the Grand Terrace area. It also seems doubtful that the OAC will attract a criminal element. Many of products and services here are geared to middle and upper income households. Stores will be operated by national and regional companies, and will not tolerate anything but the highest maintenance and operational standards. There has been concern about the impact of the new high school. Both the City Manager and the Assistant Superintendents with the Colton Joint Unified School District indicated at the last meeting that we were working together and have done so for over a year to plan a new high school in Grand Terrace. The City has committed to helping the school district to assemble the land necessary for it as well as coordinated construction issues on stuff like infrastructure, and the two projects are expected to work well together. We just recently got a visualization from the architects who are working for the Colton Joint Unified School District of what they think their preliminary view is. It is a view from the School District on how they think it would work out. One of the things that I think is very interesting is that their very large playing fields will be located adjacent to the residential area. The high school is projected to be more than 60 acres, it's easily accommodated within the area. 25 Doug Wilson: Our understanding is that this is some information came in relation to conversations that took place after your input, it went to the school board and we talked to some school people who were responsible for this to gain this information to be able to present and clarify some issues in relation to how the school was going to participate in this plan. Ralph Megna: With respect to an issue of a bedroom community; as the City Manager tried to describe it at the last meeting. One of the challenges for a bedroom community is that they don't have very large commercial areas. They are not areas that generate much in a way,of sales taxes or higher than residential property taxes. These are pretty key to being able`Ao run a city these days. You've got to have some revenue base, otherwise you find yourself having to tax your own citizens in order to supply basic services. It is my understanding that a tax issues was proposed in the City of Grand Terrace and it was voted down. Most communities that are composed highly of single family neighborhoods find it difficult to generate the tax revenues necessary. I think that it's interesting that Mr. Karger, who is involved in the home building business here in Grand Terrace has twice commented to the Commission about the fact that residential property values here are not rising as quickly as they are in nearby communities. Even at full build out, the OAC represents only 5% of the total land area in the City of Grand Terrace. Onecof the other concerns was with regard to causing additional traffic and bring crime and other consequences. We do not have any evidence or data that would.indicate that this would be true: In fact, we have some interesting or indirect information that suggests that the ,opposite is true. One of the things that happens when you look at all of the intersections in the City after the OAC is created, traffic at some intersections actually goes _down., One of those intersections is at Barton and Mt. Vernon. The evening traffic at the intersection of Barton and Mt. Vernon is actually less after the construction of the OAC than it is now. The level of service actually improves from a level of service "D" to a level of service "C". What that suggest to us is not only the traffic from the OAC leaking into the town and the circulation plan is working, but that in fact it's allowing traffic to find other routes home that do not require congesting Barton Road. Finally, what is true is that we can document that the OAC over the years will generate millions of dollars in new tax revenues that could be used for additional police and fire protection as well as enhancing the community services. One of the notes that I had made was from someone who spoke today about a boy's n girls club. I think that's a really good idea. But I also know right now that the City budget couldn't withstand it. It could potentially stand it after the OAC was built and we were generating the revenues from that. The issue with regarding to the statement of overriding considerations. I know that this is a fearsome issue and it might be best the EIR Consultant to come up and address this. The fact is that we live in a non attainment area that is the air basin we live in doesn't meet the standards for air quality. No single project no matter how small or large can do anything to change that. Whether your building the Ontario Mills or if your building residential, which by the way, we did test that issue. If this area would be done as residential housing, would we _ have to adopt a statement of overriding considerations in order to build residential, the answer is yes. That in fact, it would trigger the need for a statement of overriding considerations. 26 Doug Wilson: What about commercial. Ralph Megna: If the plan for the OAC is not adopted and the existing zoning is allowed to stand, the area will be incrementally developed over time, probably in buildings in ranging in size from 10,000 square feet to maybe 60,000 square feet. The gentleman here tonight that said just look down Commerce Way to see the concrete tilt ups was right. That's essentially the kind of development that will occur. Each one of those developments because of their size will not require the kind of EIR that we were required to do. What will happen that is over time instead of 7 or 800,000 square feet of commercial development which is what is contemplated for the OAC. You will have two million square feet of tilt ups and what is allowed under the existing zoning. That will be almost three times as much development is allowed under the current zoning as would be allowed in our current plan. This would be a down zoning. Doug Wilson: In the overall in that, am I correct in assuming that what that would eat up is buffer zones and greenbelt areas? Ralph Megna: Yes. What's going to happen is that 15 foot setbacks will'be off the right of ways but we won't get new trees and we will have concrete tilt up boxes with single ply roofs. Our current estimate right now is that development assuming you develop the same area that the OAC proposes to develop would generate more than 500 heavy truck trips a day.i.7, Because there would be no money through the incremental development of the area to finance a new on and off ramp, all of those 500 new trucks would .come and go via Michigan. Doug Wilson: I know that there are probably several people in this audience that are here still. When it comes to the tax revenue issue, there has been so much made in-relation to low much money is supposed to be represented in relation to this proposed use and again, it's a guideline use, it's not a hard fast use. Why would we not be able to realize as much tax revenue off of 2 million square feet worth of commercial versus 880,000.square feet worth of retail with pretty signs and grass and all of that stuff. Ralph Megna: That's an excellent question. The answer to that is that 2 million square feet are going to be mostly warehouses. If you look up and down the 215 and look in nearby communities like Rialto or Fontana the reality is that if you allow these individual property owners to develop the property in response to the market, the market will bring them small distribution buildings. These buildings for the most part are simply places where materials come and go. There is no sales that take place at these locations,'they are just distribution centers or logistics centers. So out of two million square feet, we might get 100,000 to 200,000 square feet that was devoted to a use that we could tax similar to Essco. Doug Wilson: This is not our only consideration. I.just wanted to know personally as well as some people here tonight that wanted to understand that one doesn't equal the other. Ralph Megna: The OAC's 700,00 to 800,000 square feet of developed space should generate at full build out in current year dollars approximately $140 million dollars in taxable sales a year. That translates into $1.4 Million Dollars a year into the coffers of the City of �- Grand Terrace. Doug Wilson: How does that money filter back to the City considering as much has been said in relation to State and County. 27 Ralph Megna: The money gets charged at the tax register, and the company's have to pay it to the franchise tax board, and the franchise tax board send the City a check for it's one penny to each dollar that is generated. i" Mr. Wilson, this gentleman said that there is not going to be a noise problem. I am across the street. I would suggest that if you go to your house and have this gentleman go down and take a 21 or 22 foot outboard ski boat with a shifty V8 in it and have him fire it up and have him do it when the trains go by and tell me if you hear it. That's ridiculous. "INAUDIBLE" Doug Wilson: There's still subject no matter what use it is whether it's a truck, car, boat, aquamarine, I don't care what it is, they are still subject to the noise regulations of the City. If somebody is in someone's garage trying to nail dry wall at four o clock on a Sunday morning, there bound to have somebody come over and have somebody visit them other than their neighbor, I would imagine that it would probably be the police. Just like some person that has a barking dog or anything else. The bottom line is that they are still subject -to the noise ordinance. "INAUDIBLE" Ralph Megna: The numbers that I have been giving you are calculations based on the square footage and the likely level of sales associated with this and are based on industry standards. These are not made up figures that basically we could reasonably expect that ,the capacity of the building on this site generate sales at between $170.00 and $210.00 per square foot, is something that can be demonstrated over a wide variety of projects, and when we get to the total sales number, the $140 million that i was suggesting earlier, ,by looking at the total amount of square footage that is devoted to both indoor sales-as well as outdoor display sales. Based on that, we believe that the $1.4 million,dollar figure that we are suggesting would be the sales tax revenues is a fair number based-on projects of this kind elsewhere. If you want to know what projects like this sales tax generators can do for a community, one example that comes up every once in awhile in our conversations is the relatively small town of Cerritos. Pretty small place actually. The population is not large, and because of it's auto center, it has a spectacular library, performing arts center and cultural facility: It gets that largely from the consequence of the large amount of sales tax revenue that are generated by the auto center and by a retail center that had one element that inspired us and it was the waterfall that you can see along the 91 freeway that feeds sales taxes in the community and allow it to have amenities that far exceed that community's normal ability to pay for those things. The City the size of Cerritos could never afford a performing arts center that they have built unless they had those kinds of sales tax revenues. Doug Wilson: So there are several examples that are within a database that you have used to be able to determine that. We could pick and choose, and we could more informed. The bottom line is that the average appears to be that it does generate the money that they are talking about at full build out. "INAUDIBLE" Ralph Megna: Only in part. 28 **INAUDIBLE** _ Ralph Megna: Actually, I would have to reach out of state. On Interstate 25 near Denver, Colorado, there is a project of roughly similar scale. Doug Wilson: I think that our best bet is to research that to see if we can find specific circumstances, but as citizens of this community I think we also have an obligation to fulfill our own questions in relation to that too. So I am going to look to see if I can find some kind of circumstance that will say that this doesn't work. If I can't see that, then obviously it means that it probably does work or at least it draws even. It's going to be impossible in this forum to answer every question down to the unth degree, but I think that if we have these kinds of things that come up in our minds that we can rely on consultants but we ourselves will also have an obligation to track down that stuff that says, hey that's-bologna. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: I think that there was a question with regard to the environmental. That the lady that was responsible for the EIR was going to come up. I specifically have some questions in relation to that. Can I ask you a couple of questions? One of the-questions had to do with endangered species. We all know that endangered is very much a catch phrase in relation to circumstances what really means is there a circumstance here that we have;located either some kind of listed species endangered in the state sets and is there something that we are doing here in this project that is going to dramatically. change of biological sensitivity of the area. Nancy Ferguson iilburn Corporation When we were here two weeks ago, Gary and I were talking briefly about a survey that's going on right now for a particular bird that may or may not nest in the wetlands that exists right now. The study goes on for six weeks, and where are we in that process Gary. Gary Koontz: We've hired a qualified consultant that deals with a this bird. They are doing their summer spring survey at the moment. The time period to do those surveys is during the nesting season which is the middle of April to the end of July. They are out there right now doing that survey. Doug Wilson: Are there any other species in relation to the project. I know that you don't get a choice of when you are supposed to study these things. You can study them in the summer but its not going to be any good because it's not during the nesting season, so it's very important that we've identified what could be a possible impact, and that,we get in there and we study at the time frame when there supposed to. We automatically identify with species that somehow might be endangered. Sometime the nature of the animal is that they are transient. There are special ways to deal with that as well. If it's a burrowing owl, there is a one way door set at their entrance that does not allow the owl to go back in but is allowed to go back out, and eventually the relocated those owls to an area that is not inhabited with human use and then they also ask for a set aside area either by purchase or by setting aside a particular area like six acres per owl or six acres per pair. Am I on the right track in relation to those kinds of things? 29 Nancy Ferguson: Well, the burrowing owl is probably a bad example. The reason is because it's not a listed, endangered or threatened species. It's not listed because the California Department of Fish and Game has reached an agreement with the various jurisdictions of the State to treat the burrowing owl as if it were in danger and to the point where we have to do a survey to see if there are any on the site and two before any sort of disturbance to the property happens in the form of grading or excavation, we have to do another survey to see if the owls have between those two times have started inhabiting the site, because they move around a lot. So if we do that, then we don't have to compensate for other lands. Doug Wilson: Are there species or for that matter plant material that are being interrupted unnecessarily? Nancy Ferguson: No. There was no endanger of plants on the site because most of the area.'-has already been disturbed in the past with either agriculture or with some other method. The bird that Gary spoke about would have inhabited the site, then the area that we were talking about in Planning Area 7 would be used for that particular bird. You will have to negotiate with the Department of Fish and Game to see if they want extra property or not. The other species we looked for was the kangaroo rat. Which is listed and it was determined by the biologist that there is no habitat on site for the kangaroo rat because of the disturbance. Doug Wilson: So to understand, at this point there is also monitoring when you are in the process of further disturbance that we can ensure that we-are not going to be destroying or -otherwise impacting critters within.that particular area. Is that correct? Nancy Ferguson: Yes. Doug Wilson: The next item that I saw was with regard to strategic toilets. I would like to ask the Staff about what was discussed in relation to correct sanitary facilities°within the project. Ralph Megna: Part of that is on the notion that the project will be like an amusement park. This project is correctly identified as a retail and services facility. It's like a shopping center with the exception of full landscaping. The individual buildings will all be required to have restroom facilities that will meet the requirements of those buildings whether there would be public restrooms within the facility would be to be determined. This is something that is at a level of detail that we haven't gotten to. I made a note of it and thought that when we get to that level of detail, that's probably something that we would need to take a look at. Doug Wilson: At this point, the way that this project is set up, and when he talks about the level of detail; basically, these are guidelines and at this juncture they have not sat down and planned a particular use other than the standard zoning and if you were using a commercial box you would have to produce so many for so much space. And the same with retail and so on. So far as a public toilet where people can visit, that's something that is still under consideration. The other item is the issue of eminent domain or condemnation. Now, we have touched on this in the past. Is there an area of condemnation other than just blank land that would be ` required or other than street frontage of right of way circumstances. In other words, is someone's house going to get torn down with this plan? 30 Gary Koontz: There are a couple of homes on De Berry that are pre-existing, non- conforming uses. They are already existing commercial zoning. In terms of going out and just having the City buy the property and tearing houses down, we do not anticipate to do that. If it comes to a point where one piece of land that may need to be acquired, we would have to go before the City Council and they would have to take action. It has to be a 4 to 1 vote even before eminent domain and then there are whole lot of procedures that would have to go from that. , Is it a tool that may be used? Yes. Is there a law procedure that we would have to go through? Yes. It would be a formal public hearing before the City Council. Doug Wilson: In other words, It's not something that the City would come down and bull doze the property. Eminent domain takes a lot of work. It has to be proven that it would do the community good. It has to be proven that there is no other way to deal with it and so on. :So far as an automatic situation, not a chance. Number two, it would not be authorized by this Body. The only agency that has the right to even address it would be the City Council. We have no authority here and still have no authority to transfer property. There is only one body that has that authority and that's the City Council. They are the only ones that have the authority under charter to negotiate. I would imagine that they would .be willing to listen to quite a bit of testimony in relation to it. Robert Bidney: In regard to eminent domain and confiscation of property; we have approximately nine property owners? :Ralph Megna:. Yes. There are nine owners within the property. Robert Bidney: We also have some renters like a tow truck business. What happens when you make a deal with the property owner to take his property, and then the guy-that has a _ business on that property is out, and has lost his business and livelihood? Ralph Megna: If it's the tow truck company down on Pico Street, that .is within: the requisition area proposed for the high school and not the OAC. So if your question is related to the tow truck company, to the best of my knowledge, we are not affecting any. However, if your question is if someone, and we do have this condition in several cases; where someone is renting a house and that house is acquired pursuant to a resolution of necessity adopted by the City Council with an eminent domain action, that person is entitled to relocation benefits that would pay to move that person into similar or better accommodations and pay the differential on rent for a given period of time so they could afford to live where they were moved to. Doug Wilson: I know that to be a fact because I am involved with a project in Indio whereas the City of Indio and La Quinta have done a cooperative effort to be able to put through a four lane road off of Jefferson Street. In order to do that they had to move about five houses on that street. A portion of the homes were rentals, and they went and made a fair market analysis which took about a year and a half and not one individual became unhappy as to how the property.was acquired, because there is so much legislation in relation to protecting those peoples rights. The amount of money that they make in relocation is more than enough to be able to compensate for it. The unfortunate thing is that you cannot be able to compensate a person from the idea that they have lived there for 30 to 40 years. Ralph Megna: As you have previously pointed out, this body is not involved in the eminent domain process. To be specific in this case, I believe that there are four single family 31 homes within the 123 acres. Two of them are occupied by renters and one of them is occupied by the relative of an owner and then the fourth is occupied by an owner. In the case of the four houses within the property, only one is actually owner/occupied, and the second is occupied by a relative. This not a widespread issue out of 123 acres; were talking about four houses and two of them were rentals. Robert Bidney: Well, if one them is mine, I would be very concerned. Ralph Megna: We have been in communication for over a year with all of the property owners within the foot print of the OAC have been spoken to on multiple occasions, either by me or someone else in my firm or by the Community Development Director and has been going on for at least a year. Doug Wilson: This has not been a first time where a house has stood in the way of a particular improvement. Robert Bidney: I understand that it is the City Council's ultimate decision, but in the mean time, I have to make a decision of what I am going to do here and I ask these questions as a private citizen and as a Planning Commission, and I know that the City has the authority to override this Commission or do what they want to do. But in the mean time, for me to make a decision, I would like to do the right thing for everyone in Grand Terrace, and if I was involved in the area that you are talking about, I would be very concerned, so I want to know:if the City is involved with a developer to the opportunity that they are going to do this together until such time as they give the City property to the developer? That's City Council business in knowing how to make a deal, but I would like to know a little bit about it myself. Ralph Megna: The development process that this project has pursued -is unusual. Most 'communities, and I think it's important to indicate that I have served as the development director for the City of Riverside in addition to the City of Grand Terrace, i also advise the Cities of Fontana and Redlands on redevelopment issues. Most of those communities, if they had a similar situation, would send out an RFP, and invited developers to propose projects for the property. The City itself would have spent little or no energy trying to understand what was going on with the real estate, and what can be developed on it. They just solicited developer proposals. That's not what the City of Grand Terrace did. The City Council clearly told us that it had expectations about how it wanted the property developed and as we went through at the last meeting, I explained that we looked closely at a residential alternative and looked at an industrial alternative and a normal shopping center. When we presented the concept of the adventures center, the Council said they liked it and wanted us to pursue it. Robert Bidney: We're going to develop this property and the City is going to work with the developer. Is the City involved working with the developer, and the City is the only one that can do the condemnation. That's my question. Ralph Megna: Yes. The City would be a partner with the developer in the development of this project, though it sees that role primarily as an opportunity to continue to see that its vision for the project get fulfilled and not circuited off into left field somewhere. Doug Wilson: The City is the only one that can do that because the developer can't because legally, only a governmental agency can act on eminent domain. "INAUDIBLE" 32 Doug Wilson: No it's not. Wait a minute, let me address that. It's not segregated, the developer doesn't have any right to make an eminent domain. It has to be by a government agency. That's law. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: There was a question in relation to getting rid of garbage and solids. In the EIR, it addresses where the local garbage collections are and each individual and it has been my experience with commercial ventures as well as retail and so on, that there's a plenty good amount of time on where and how the garbage will be collected and picked up taken away. So far as the twenty foot sound wall, it's not really what it is. There will be no 20 foot sound barrier that will be built any place. There are sound attenuation circumstances that will be addressed within the project and they might even benefit us in relation to existing sound situations but,those will be in each individual site plan; so those will be addressed the way that they always are in each project. In relation to the high school. I think that there has been more information available on the nigh school and we possibly got some better clarification on that and it was due. It should have been clarified and I congratulate our Mayor ProTem for getting involved in that and getting some additional information and brining it to the staff members. I can guarantee you that it is not real easy to get a straight story a lot of time. Some of that has to do with projects in process, and it also has to do with the State being a larger entity that we are and they=get away with a little more. "INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: I believe that ,there has been some program set up for the improvement of the intersection at Barton Road and the freeway for quite awhile. I can't answer that but don't know if the money is going to go away. Ralph Megna: First of all, the answer to the question is yes, in fact Congressman Lewis' office has been instrumental in obtaining a $500,000 for the City of Grand Terrace so that it can analyze the current Barton Road exit and propose safety and access improvements to it. The $500,000 would be used to analyze, design and determine the environmental impacts associate with any changes to the Barton Road on and off ramps. It would be up to the Council to decide. Many of the changes that we're proposing are safety changes. The Barton Road off ramp and onramp system was put in place in 1957 or 58, so it is now almost 50 years old, and there are many elements of it that aren't very safe any longer. Probably the most important of which is a 3 lane bridge is simply unsafe, and part of the money would be used to study an enlargement of the bridge to four lanes. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: It certainly wouldn't be this body. I'll tell you that. Gary Koontz: It's a coordinated effort between the City, Caltrans, and SANBAG. The funds �J would be designated for the City of Grand Terrace, but to use those funds, we have to work directly through Caltrans and SANBAG. So Caltrans does actually regulate the funds for that. We have to get the funds for them and then they make sure we are using them 33 properly. In terms of using the money, we have to go through a very detailed formal RFP process, controlled by SANBAG and Caltrans to contract with an engineer and an environmental firm. Doug Wilson: So the answer is, that no; the money doesn't necessarily go away, the bottom line is that it is a coordinated effort and it has to be implemented by the City Council. **INAUDIBLE** Ralph Megna: There were a couple of questions with regard to the lake and water pollution that:'I think I can address briefly. One is to understand that at this moment, there is- no agreement with the City of Riverside regarding the use of the lake as a recharge basin, and I want to underscore that their use of it is not as a reservoir. In other words, this is not like Diamond Lake, it's not like Lake Perris. It is a recharge facility. That was an idea proposed by.the City of Riverside and it's Public Utilities Department, and it did not come from us. It was something that when we met with them regarding their wells and water transmission facilities, they raised it and said that they would like to investigate it on their own and we have given them the room to do that. At present, the EIR and the Specific Plan describes an ordinary lake with an impermeable bottom similar to the Adobe Clay, which is what lakes are made out of, so at this moment that is what the EIR anticipates. If, in fact, the City of Riverside and it's Public Utilities Department comes back to us and says, we would really .like to do a recharge basin here, the City of Riverside will have to do it's own EIR and Impact Analysis associated with that in order to do it. It's really one their backs to take that forward. I might add that the City of Riverside has not hesitated in the:past to protect,the quality of it's water sources and my suspicion is that if that were an issue here, they would make sure that we did everything accordingly. Doug-Wilson: I am a little sensitive to that because of the lake situation, and I did ask our Community Development Director that if we couldn't work it out the other way, was he going to have,a pool skimmer to take trash out of the lake. **INAUDIBLE** Ralph Megna: Someone mentioned a concern on whether the lake was 8 or 12 acres. The -main lake is estimated at about 8 acres, but the total water surface between the main lake and the small body of water that is connect under a channel under the bridge and the pond at the south end totals 12 acres. Doug Wilson: Can you tell us how the lake water runs through, because I know the difference between a lake and an area that gets stuck with water in it is substantial. Ralph Megna: Well, this is a man made engineered lake, and is also a detention basin that is meant to contain a certain amount of storm water runoff that most of which is not generated by the OAC. This is an engineered lake and channel with a pond. There will be a delta between the nominal water surface and the edge of the lake and what will happen in a major storm is that this area will be allowed to fill then there will be a spillway that will allow the water to run into the lower area and will be allowed to overflow into an existing County flood control facility. Doug Wilson: At the current time from what I have read in the EIR, is that we really don't have a detention per say that actually handles the amount of water that is run off for the City for a 100 year storm condition. Not only does this create a water feature, but as long 34 as we are careful to make sure that it environmentally safe, it creates a circumstance of now that we do have control detention and an outlet at the lower end. Ralph Megna: Two other features include under non storm circumstances, water is introduced into the lake primarily at the falls that are located at the entry into the project. _ That will provide an opportunity for aeration, where the water gets circulated and dumped into and poured into the lake. Through gravity, the water will flow into this channel which would create the water to move at 2 feet per -second so it could be used to do fly fishing demonstrations or potentially kayaking. The other body of water, or pond will be the wetlands replacement area. The water will get pumped back up to the falls, and will be used ,to recharge the lake along with water that will be brought from an outside source, whether it's the City of Riverside, or our own. Doug Wilson: What will happen if the water starts to evaporate. What is the potential for losing water per year. Ralph Megna: Even if the lake has an impermeable bottom, it will require about 1 million gallons per month to be refreshed. At this moment, it requires about 3-5% of our pumping capacity on site. It will only take a fraction of our water capacity that we already own an control on site to refresh the lake. That would be if this becomes a joint project with the City of Riverside and it's Public Utilities -department, the City of Riverside would be responsible for providing adequate flows into the lake. It's water will be coming from the source north of here near the Santa Ana river and will be brought to this site using their existing canal system. Doug Wilson: Isn't there a mechanism within the community itself that i$ self sufficient:so - far as who.will pay for the replacement of the water. Ralph Megna: For example, if the City of Riverside were not to do this, it requires only about 5% of our water capacity that we have on site right now to provide water for the lake. That water will also be shared with the school district. They would like taccess to'that water to keep the playing fields_.green. We have agreed to work with them to distribute water to their facility as well. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: It's plan currently is a clay bottom. The water,will not be able to go through. If the City of Riverside decides that they want something other than that to be able to justify the recharge option, then instead of us being responsible for manufacturing the engineering, it will be the responsibility of the City of Riverside to protect their aquifer. So at this point with a clay bottom, I can guarantee_ that there is no way for the water to go through the clay bottom. **INAUDIBLE** Matt Addington: Someone had asked a question with regard to the effects of an earthquake and the lake. - . Ralph Megna: The result would be wave generation. It would also mostly depend on whether is vertical or horizontal in it's energy. In either case, you will get wave action. Because the lake will be used as a detention, there is a lip around the lake, so to a certain extent, and unless the waves were huge, the waves would be contained within the basin. If 35 the issue is whether it would create a crack in the liner for the lake, anything is possible. There are canals in this area that would probably be affected as well if the seismic event were that great, however, what I can say is that whatever impact is going to be associated with that is limited to the water that's in the lake at that moment. We can choose to turn the water off and the impact can be entirely limited to just what water is in the lake at the time that the event takes place. Since we have segmented this, it would not necessarily effect the entire body of water because there is a weir or floodgate and the lower body of water where the wetlands area is could be effectively segregated from the larger body of water to its north and east. Gary'Koontz: Let me add a couple of things, first of all, this is not the only lake in Southern California. Whatever happens to this one will happen to a lot of other ones. Secondly, to design a lake, you go to a lake design specialist. You just don't dig a hole in the ground. There are people out there .who do this for a living and understand how to make it work correctly. Any type of design that is done uses up to date geotechnical 'and soils reports. Which include detailed information on seismic issues and standards that they have to abide by. Doug Wilson: 'The company that builds the lake also has to warranty the lake for a period .of time as well: **INAUDIBLE** .Doug Wilson: That was one of the reason why I brought that up with regard. to water motion. I was in a meeting today, and we talked about lakes, because the project that I am involved with in my regular business is going to have somewhere upwards to 23 lakes and an 18 hole golf course. We talked about water distribution and the main way of keeping things like that from happening is making sure the water moves. You can't even aerate a lake when it's in a sub condition and actually properly create a condition where you don't end up with a bunch of algae. People will try to put gold fish in a lake and it's amazing how fast birds find them. The best way to cope with algae is to keep the water moving. That is the current design for the project to keep the water recirculating. If the water is not moving, it's not going to work. a **INAUDIBLE** Ralph Megna: This is the City of Riverside's aquifer. The City of Riverside actually owns this water, and the City of Riverside would go to considerable lengths to protect the quality of it. I would not be surprised if we decide to go forward that they would have clauses that guarantee that the water quality be maintained at this location. **INAUDIBLE** Ralph Megna: Good question. The depth of the lake is directly related to algae blooming. The minimum depth of the lake would be about 8 feet. That's not a arbitrary number, it is a number based on experience on how deep water needs to be in order to be able to protect the water from algae blooms and other development. Doug Wilson: There's also a maximum depth that you can do because then you come under the hospices of a dam. So we must exercise that range which is up to 22 feet. 36 Ralph Megna: Because this is an engineered facility we can actually do this within inches, but it will probably be in the range of 8 to 10 feet across the large body of water. Matt Addington: I can expand on that. The relationship of depth versus volume when you get into a dam situation. I have another question. Green buffers and set backs from the streets. You had presented that there were going to be some good buffers along the main arterial section such as Adventure Way or Commerce Way. What about along the existing residences. What kind of buffers are we looking at in that area. Gary..Koontz: The buffers will be dictated by the kinds of uses, the heights of the buildings, and the decisions made by the Commission when each project comes for a site an architectural review. We require a minimum of some sort of a wall with at least a five foot landscape strip for trees to buffer from where the building sets back and what's the decision of the Commission. Matt Addington: Another question that we talked about last week with regard to truck traffic -on Van Buren. Is there a way that we can tell Willdan Pump that their traffic has to go west on Van Buren and not head up to Michigan. Gary Koontz: One of the things we touched on last time was at the discretion of the City Council, it may be possible to take this section of Michigan and designate it-as anon-truck route. That would have to be action by the City Council, but we can at least get trucks off of Michigan. We could go to Willdan and have a serious discussion about routing trucks.= MattKAddington: Will on street parking be allowed within the Specific Plan urea. . Gary.-Koontz: We are not planning any on street parking. Ralph Megna: However, we are planning bike lanes on all of the streets. Typically bike lanes and on street parking are not compatible. Tom Comstock: With regard to repair of jet skis and boats; will they be allowed on the lake at all to test equipment that has been repaired. Gary Koontz: That's an issue that can be regulated by this Body and the City Council. Doug Wilson: I would suggest that it probably be used for new sales. The emission issue was a very solid question that was asked. I do know that there is some information within the EIR as well as our amendment so far as emission and how they are supposed to be mitigated. Nancy Ferguson: I think that was an issue related to water quality. Newly formulated fuels does not contain MTBE any more. This goes back to the issue of what types of boats will be on the lake. We were under the assumption that it would be solely for new boats. Doug Wilson: California Law does not allow that kind of emission in their fuel? Nancy Ferguson: It is no longer used as an additive. There were some questions that were brought up with regard to the EIR that should be addressed. I think that it is important that it is put into the record. 37 One of the issues that I didn't quite grasp last'week, but it finally made sense this evening was when Ms. Farley made mention to the draft findings and statements of overriding considerations when the question arose that last week how you had already made a decision on the project and I like to address that. The document that Ms. Farley has is a copy of the Draft, and I emphasize the word, Draft Findings and Statements of Overriding Considerations. That is a legal document that the City Council must adopt if they decide to certify the EIR. It was in your packet as information. So that you could see what the City Council would be adopting if they chose to certify the EIR. It is not a document that is ready for adoption because it does not contain the most recent information that we have and some of the changes in the EIR would have to be modified based on some of the comments we received last week and this week. We made that effort and are responding to the comments that Mr. Megna went through so by the time the Final EIR gets to the City Council,-the draft findings would then be finalized and then be update. So if people have copies of the findings, it is a draft and it would be updated based on new information that has been provided at the Planning Commission. Doug Wilson: I would also like to mention that the EIR purpose is to notify other agencies and all other interested parties basically. That document then goes through a State Clearinghouse operation and there is a time frame of 45 days. At the end of the 45 day period, they certify that it is actually been exposed for public scrutiny and that it can become a final EIR. None of it is a Final EIR until it actually has been revised and so and is brought before the City Council. The City Council then adopts the EIR. This Body is not allowed:.-to do that, what we are allowed to do is to make a recommendation. Whether or not the findings have been correctly identified or whether or not we recommend to the.City _Council that it should be adopted, we do not have the authority to certify the EIR. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: Understand that even at this point it's still a transmission. � At this juncture, nobody has the authority to make it a final EIR until it is certified by the local agency. So it's a rubber document for now. Nancy Ferguson: That is what I wanted to clarify. I did not realize last week_ what the confusion was, and I didn't realize until tonight that when I saw that a reporter had a copy of the findings and I thought that it was interesting. Those are still a draft. The other issue about the sound wall; I would like to clarify that the Environmental Impact Report as you said before evaluated the Specific Plan for this project and it evaluated a large picture. As we have bantered back and forth over the past two nights about this, how often are we going to come back here and talk about future projects as they come in. With that in mind, the noise engineer did his evaluation based on a project that didn't have any buildings because he didn't know where the buildings were going to be situated in relation to the houses. The fourteen foot sound wall that appears in the EIR represents a worse case scenario, and once that area called the OAC retail comes in and we see where the buildings are actually located, they would revise the analysis on the noise to see how much attenuation those buildings would provide for the residential areas. Once this takes place, it will be obvious that the sound wall will not be needed. But it is currently unknown. Doug Wilson: A project in Fontana required a 15 foot sound wall required for railroad sound attenuation. What they did is they built a berm seven feet high and then built a wall on top of the berm at 8 feet high. The reason why did that was because anything above that particular height would require a conditional use permit or a variance process by the city. Most of the engineering of project would have to determine the pad height of each 38 project and the location of the buildings. In order to be able to attenuate a project, you have to have theoretical attenuation device. Nancy Ferguson: The other concern was with regard to the high school and whether or not we had adequately evaluated it's potential to be on the site. When we first started the EIR we sent out a Notice of Preparation, in which it was sent out to the agencies including the school district. At that point, it was to our understand that the school district had not made a decision about the site and it was not what is commonly referred to as a reasonably foreseeable project. Even though they were talking about putting a high school in Grand Terrace, when the Notice of Preparation was circulating, the site had not been secured by the school: district and so we evaluated the existing conditions under the California Environmental:Quality Act. That is the reason that the high school was not prominently featured in .the EIR. Although it did pop up in certain places during the process that it became evident that the high school was probably going to go into that area we did address it as best as we could by saying that the high school would be at least 1300 feet away from the noise generators. We used the property line to evaluate it and it seem now 'that the buildings will be much farther away from 1300 feet. The last concern was with regard to alternative.- Many people asked why we only looked at certain alternatives. The residential alternative and the tilt up alternatives for distribution facilities. There was a very definite reason why we did that and not a business park with offices was because the general type of development that is coming our way from Orange and Los Angeles Counties have been homes, and distribution warehouse-facilities because . .they have run out of space in Orange and Los Angeles Counties; and there still is a lot of potential and a pent up need for distribution and warehouse facilities. The reason why we did not evaluate a business park- with corporate headquarters is because corporations generally,have their headquarters where the CEO's want to live. There was recently over the past couple of months with regard to what the development in the Inland Empire might look like in the future. Given the fact that development is moving out this way, and. the consensus was that it's not likely that we will not get a lot of corporate..headquarters out here because CEO's would rather live in Newport Beach. Someone mentioned Hospitality Lane as an example where you could :have:a business park and corporate headquarters, but as we all know Hospitality Lane has not::been built out yet and they have been working on that area since 1965. A lot of the area is restaurants, hotels, and business, but for the most part, they are not .corporate headquarters. One of the buildings that is located there says Xerox, 1 but it is not the corporate headquarter but rather a branch office. Tetra tech, a nationwide environmental engineering firm has an office in that area but it's not the corporate office. We could have done that but in relativity, what you are seeing along the 215 corridor are either commercial power centers or are residential, where they buy next to the freeway, so a sound wall is _then built. Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario are perfect examples to distribution and warehousing and what they look like, so we made a conscious effort to evaluate the alternatives that we thought we reasonably feasible. If the Outdoor Adventures Center does not work out and it develops on it' own, those are the types of things that you can expect. Ralph Megna: If this project were approved this Summer, the retail stores would not open until the Fall of 2006. That would be the first stores. Full build out would probably not occur until the end of the decade. Tom Comstock: Is there any interest from developers or major retail stores? 39 Ralph Megna: Yes. With respect to developers, the developers have known about this project for two years, and we made no effort whatsoever to promote it. They read about it in newspaper accounts regarding this project and was picked up there. We have interviewed 9-10 different development entities with respect to their qualifications to do this project. Some of these are people like Majestic who are building the Citrus Plaza in the Redlands area, and Lanar Partners, which is one of the largest developers in this country. One of the reality tests that this project has had to experience is are the developers who look at this think that it is a good idea. In fact, quite a few developers have contacted us from the newspapers articles and said, this is a good idea, how do we get involved. Doug Wilson: To say that the project has had that type of entertainment in the past two years is a little deceptive. What takes place is that developers know where every parcel in every community is vacant at the time. As far out as Coachella Valley is bought out and is in escrow. - They know whether there is a capability of generating revenue. That is the way a developer pursues it. When something that has been known for a couple of years. It is realistic to say that there is a 130 acre parcel that could be a development opportunity. 90% of the time they know that they will push that community into that direction if,they see -a fairly decent opportunity because they are treasure hunters. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: In the instance of a lot of racquet being built, the development of the project itself usually doesn't generate a ton of heavy work usually grading are the-things .that create a lot of noise generation and dust. As a development project is phased,:there is still subject to the same requirements as everybody else is. AQMD is deadly when.-it comes to dust,. and SWPP, also known as Storm Water Pollution Prevention is .deadly when it come to making sure that water does not get polluted. All of those circumstances including noise .regulations are individually prescribed. So it wouldn't make a difference whether they went in there and wiped out 130 acres tomorrow and build a bunch of stuff within six months,,or whether they did it slowly but surely for a better potential to be a little bit less of an intrusion in your situation. **INAUDIBLE** Doug Wilson: That is the reason why we will be reviewing each of the site plans. Ralph Megna: Mr. Chairman, you made an interesting comment with regard to the grading activities. One of our requirements is that we do not want the community to have to experience dirt having to be brought in or taken out of the area. We went through a sophisticated computer analysis of this site. In order to insure that the site balance to within a foot within it's boundaries. In other words, we made a conscious effort to avoid any impacts to the community associated with having to truck dirt in or out. Doug Wilson: You have all probably seen them go down the highway and they can be quite a disturbance, and it is also cost wise to do so. Tom Comstock: On the proposed site plan you have a hotel, fitness center, retail, motor sports and water sports, have we had any interest expressed by those types of businesses. Ralph Megna: We have had meetings in contact with more than one potential hotel developer with multiple retailers that would be suitable for the development of this site with 40 at least one major fitness chain. So when we show these things, this is a conceptual drawing but we have reality tested this with the market leaders in each of these areas. In other words, we've reality tested the site with LA Fitness for example, and they have expressed interest in the site. We have reality tested it with the Marriott Corporation and they have expressed interest in this site. We have reality tested it with Outdoor World which is one of the largest recreational retailers on the planet, and they have expressed interest in this site. In other words, when ,we have taken this project to the major potential tenants, they have all expressed interest in using this site. Had we had this project a little more advanced, there were several boat dealers that.were located on the 215 closer to Riverside that wanted to relocate to this now, but we were unable to accommodate them because the construction on the 215 interchange was happening now and obviously we wouldn't be ready to receive them for at least another two years. Gary Koontz: There is another issue that I would like to add to this. There was a concern with regard to a boat dealer comes in and cannot compete because it is too expensive. The master developer process is as follows: The first thing would be an exclusive right to .negotiate between the City Council and the Developer. There would be.a period of 6 to 8 months where the developer would have to do his due diligence. The first thing that the developer would have to do is a massive marketing analysis and tenant search. He would not put a lot of money down and the City join in unless the developer says that a tenant would work. The developer may go out and discover that the kind of costs that will take will not be able to get a boat dealer here, so then at that point; we won't have a boat dealer because:it will not work feasibly. So then, we would have to find another type of use that can support.this with the kind of rents. **At this time the Chairman called for a five minute recess** Doug Wilson. I had a concern with the issue of water quality, so I would like to call a representative who has made himself available to briefly talk about the water quality. Don Hough-General Manager Riverside Highland Water We serve Grand Terrace and parts of Highgrove. The first responsibility to.Riverside Highland Water is to supply water to our shareholders and customers within our service area. This project is within our service area, but it's really not our decision what it is, whether it's an Outdoor Adventures Center or residential or irrigation that is being served through Riverside County. Our responsibility is to deliver water at a sufficient quantity and quality. We have been working with the City, in fact when they first approached us about the project in October into November, of last year, we put together a water supply assessment to determine if we had sufficient quantities to supply to it. And we found that we did. In fact, we took in to consideration that the City's well could not be used, we have the capability to deal the water to the lake as well as all of the irrigation. At the same time, we started to talk about the quality and so forth. Originally, as Mr. Koontz mentioned there was supposed to be a liner on it. That in itself would prevent any kind of contamination reaching the aquifer. Second of all, we have wells in this area. We have one well on Michigan below Mavis. As a matter of fact it is on Mr. Swertsfeger's property. We also have a well on Main and Taylor, so we are very concerned about the water quality in this area. We have been in contact with the City about this. They now have water craft, not just boats, but also personal water craft that do not produce the kind of pollution that the two stroke engines do. 41 They now have a four stroke in which Honda makes one. From what I understand and the way that we have been in conversation, these were all going to be the new water craft that were going to be on this lake. Now, after the EIR came out, the City of Riverside approached the City and we got a copy of that and read their comments where they were interested in replenishment of the aquifer. The City of Riverside has been doing a project that they were entitled to pump a certain amount of water and make it a majority of their water out of San Bernardino out of the Bunker Basin, they were topped at 50,000 acre feet per year. That is not enough to supply, but they need more water. If they want to pump an additional 25,000 acre feet from this basin, that's going to substantially draw down this aquifer. They have been looking for some time now, to find a place to recharge this aquifer,.this project would be ideal. If it would work out for them. We are in favor of that,' but we are .not going to just stand by and let them go ahead and start re-charging; nor would they do that, they are going to do their studies and analysis to see if it would work, because there are some clay lands below that. The water table in that area right now is about 110 feet. There are some clay lands between the surface and that area that would have to be penetrated to create some recharge. There is a lot more than just quality here as far as whether they can do it or not. If they can, and it would not create a quality problem, we are all for it. An additional 25,000 acre per feet from the basin could impact our wells, so as far as the statement earlier that they own the aquifer; that's a little -inaccurate. It is an aquifer Riverside north that there are a number of us who have pumping rights. They are one of them and we are another one. We have combined rights of certain amount. If they overdraft, then it would be their duty to recharge it. I am glad to take this opportunity to speak because it sounded like we really weren't involved and didn't have a concern about it. We have had a concern about it and we have been working with the City. Right now, there is nothing that's going to be done where we won't have some kind of input in, nor the City of Riverside. As far as that aquifer, as far as quality, ror any kind of recharge. I would be more than happy to answer any kind of -questions if anyone has any. Chair Wilson closed the public hearing and brought it back to the Commission for any comments or questions. Commissioner Whitely: First of all, I need a clarification with regard to tax generation from this area. Obviously, there is a sales tax revenue which was explained would be a benefit to the City. Development would also presumably increase the property tax assessed valuations of these properties as they are developed regardless of what type of development is put on the property. What, if any benefits, does that generate to the City. Ralph Megna: Given that the current assessed values in this area are only a few million dollars and that the in place value of this project is probably something approaching 110 or 120 million dollars, there would clearly be an increase in total assessed value of 100 million dollars by the development of this project is that it would generate additional property taxes. This area is a redevelopment project area and most of that addition would come in the form of tax increment revenues to the City of Grand Terrace's Redevelopment Agency and would be a benefit to the community over the life of the project. Doug Wilson: Due to tax law, how would it affect the surrounding uses, just because the property has changed in character from 300 million dollars to 100 million dollars worth of valuation, would that affect the neighborhood that isn't selling their property? 42 Ralph Megna: Under Proposition 13, you are capped at 2% increase per year, so if you do not sell or exchange your property, there is no impact on the nearby property owners whatsoever. The only impact that would occur would be within the development zone where this an transaction taking place. Commissioner Brian Whitely: With regard to the infrastructure costs to the streets, is it my understand ing.that the developer would be the one effectively paying the costs of that? Ralph Megna: The developer certainly would, but it is premature for us to speculate on exactly how that would be financed, there are a number of mechanisms for doing that. . In response to,an earlier question, I think it would be important to indicate that we have held off and we felt that it would be reasonable and even prudent for us to bring a developer in before that. Once we do have a developer on board, we would be in a much better position to do some of these detailed issues that you are raising. For example, how will specific elements of,,,-the project be finance. Clearly, the developer is going to have a say on how that's accomplished. Gary Koontz: Basically, we are looking at two different structures for funding. Either private development funds or community facilities district, which would basically encompass the immediate project area. In no way, shape or form would we be using City General Funds to fund improvements in this project. Doug Wilson: . When you say community facility district, that means- mapping a particular area and making it responsible for assessments. Brian Whitley: In the list of intersections that's identified in the EIR. There is one intersection which I did not see, although it is contemplated on being approved and that ..was the intersection of Barton and Michigan. Is that an oversight and should it be corrected for the final EIR, and also just to make sure that the development assuming that the cost is appropriate to the development that it is appropriately including so that the developer does pay for that rather than the City. I would not want an intersection that is not included in the EIR fall under the responsibility of the City to improve. Ralph Megna: What your asking about is not whether we analyzed the intersection because that did occur, but what you are asking is with regard to Table 4.3-13 why it is not listed as one of the intersection of roadway improvements. Brian Whitley: That is correct, we have a number of intersections associated with development costs and that was one that I just did note unless it was characterized differently. Ralph Megna: We are about to get that answer for you from the traffic engineer. It is a practical matter. That intersection does get upgraded in order to carry the inbound and outbound traffic through the intersection of Barton and Michigan. Carl Ballard: There were two analysis done for the project. One analysis was done that did not have the new interchange and we had the supplemental analysis that did have the new interchange and that was per the direction of SCAG and SANBAG. The analysis that does not have the interchange has mitigation at Barton and Michigan because as you know, more traffic will go through that intersection. With the new interchange, the intersection of Barton and Michigan would actually work fine with the existing lanes even though that small segment of Michigan would have to be slightly modified. 43 Ralph Megna: To clarify, the answer is that we are not actually changing the intersection, but we would be changing the street width in that distance, so it's showing up as an intersection improvement, but we do pick it up as a street improvement for the length of that �- space. Doug Wilson: So from Commerce to Barton Road. Carl Ballard: That's correct. **INAUDIBLE** Carl Ballard:, The levels of service of an intersection is based upon conflicting movements, so suppose,if you look at an intersection that you have people going east on Barton, they are conflicting with people wanting to go north on Michigan and make a left on Barton. With the new interchange, your going to redesign the flow of traffic where we will-have less traffic coming off.the freeway and going east on Barton. There will be more coming off the new interchange to Commerce to Michigan and making a right on Barton. So there will be less conflicting, movement and the level of service will actually improve at an intersection because your going to have less going east on Barton coming off the interchange because there is no off ramp. And they will be making a right. A right turn lane, you have better levels of service. Left turn lanes make more of a conflict. **INAUDIBLE** Carl Ballard:;-But with the new design.... **INAUDIBLE** Carl Ballard: That's kind of the way that the traffic is going to work also. If you are coming west on Barton, you're not going to care because of the design of the interchange... **INAUDIBLE** Carl Ballard: We are going to eliminate most of traffic going east on Barton. Ralph Megna: A considerable portion of the traffic that goes north on Michigan to go to Barton Road and then as the gentleman points out turns left to go west on Barton is doing so to get to the freeway onramp. Much of that traffic that is coming up Michigan is coming from Willdan Pump. Particularly, mid afternoon, because their shifts let off starting at 3:00 in the afternoon. I might add that we pretty much analyzed all of this. We think that a part of the traffic that is going north on Michigan and then west on Barton to get on to the 215 Freeway, will instead choose to take a much shorter route. They will never end up on Michigan or Barton if this plan is followed through. It is not a perfect solution and we have not eliminated 100% of the issue, but we got rid of half of it and we thought that we were doing pretty well at that point. Doug Wilson: Ms. Farley, I see you have your hand up. **INAUDIBLE** 44 Brian Whitley: On the subject of the eminent domain aspects and the four houses apparently that are non conforming in the area, my understanding would be that at the present time given the current zoning of the property, industrial/commercial type buildings can be built immediately adjacent to and surrounding all of those existing residences. r f Gary Koontz: Correct. Brian Whitley: I am not sure of the exact location of those residences within the area, but given what is being proposed at this time is a specific plan which is essentially a guideline for development in theory, at least, a developer would not need to develop all of the property within the area shown because either they cannot negotiate an agreement with the homeowner; and/or the City did not want to condemn the property; they could, in theory build around it. Gary Koontz: ; Theoretically. Please note also, that Mr. Dotson who spoke the last time owns two of those parcels at the end of De Berry Street. Those parcels are for sale and have been for sale for quite some time. We have talked with Mr. Dotson and he definitely wants to sell these pieces of land. "INAUDIBLE" Brian Whitley: Basically what the existing zoning which has been there for many years owning a residential property in an industrial/commercial zoned area is not generally desirable situation, at least for long term. Ralph Megna: You're making a very good point. It's very important to understand while there are four residences within the project footprint; 100% of the property in this area is zoned either commercial or industrial. None of the property that is planned for the OAC,is zoned residential, not one square inch of it. "INAUDIBLE" Doug Wilson: Any further questions or discussion? Would the Commission like to entertain a motion on SP-04-01 and.E-04-03? Matt Addington: If I may, based upon my experience in the land development business, and watching projects proceed in a patchwork and with building within the zoning and how they turn out, and watching projects proceed within a specific plan where their good guidelines for development, I would like to move that the Planning Commission recommend the certification of the Environmental Impact Report and approval of the Ordinance to Adopt the Specific Plan to the City Council. MOTION PC-09-2004: Vice Chair Addington made a motion to recommend the certification of the Environmental Impact Report E-04-03, and approval of the Ordinance to Adopt the Specific Plan S P-04-01. Chair Wilson seconded the motion. MOTION VOTE: PC-09-2004 Approved 4-1-0-0 Commissioner Bidney voting no 45 ADJOURN SITE AND ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD/PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING 10:45 P.M. Information to Commissioners None Information from Commissioners .Vice Chair Addington had a question with regard to the status of handicap parking stalls at Pico Park, and was the comment forwarded on to other Staff in the City. Being a.user of Pico Park during the Little League season and having someone in my family that requires a placard.for handicap parking, I have noticed that there are not handicap stalls at the park. I am sure that it meets code for the amount of stalls but I would like for the City to consider adding a few more. Steve Berry: If and when you look at the parking lot, it is actually due for new slurry coat and seal. Once the application is finished, we will add more handicap parking stalls. NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING TO BE HELD ON JUNE 3. 2004 Respectfully-Submitted, Approved By, Gary ebontz, Penning Director Doug Wilson, Chairman Planning Commission 46