08/17/1987GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING
August 17, 1987
The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was
called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton
Road, Grand Terrace, California, on August 17, 1987 at 7:00 p.m.
by Chairman, Norman Caouette.
PRESENT:
Norman Caouette, Chairman
Jerry Hawkinson, Vice Chairman
Gerald Cole, Commissioner
Stanley Hargrave, Commissioner
Ray Munson, Commissioner
Fran Van Gelder, Commissioner
David Sawyer, Planning Director
Ivan Hopkins, City Attorney
ABSENT:
Pledge of Allegiance: Gerald Cole
-f. — ` TRU T ES"-
WORRSHOP —"-- Convened at 6:30 p.m.
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Mr. Bruce Ramm, Security Design, gave slide
presentation and lecture to the Planning Commission
on crime prevention by environmental design.
WORKSHOP ADJOURNED AT 7:10 P.M.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING CONVENED 7:10 P.M.
Minutes of Planning Commission
Meeting July 6, and July 7, 1.987
Commissioner Hargrave suggested correction on Page
8, 5th paragraph, of July 6, 1987 minutes. Change
wording from "is" to "has" in sentence, ..net
density is the actual density that a project is
upon a completion of all dedications," was agreed
upon by both Commissioner. Hargrave and Planning
Director David Sawyer.
MOTION Motion made by Commissioner Munson, with changes
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PC-87-40 noted, to approve minutes of July 6th and July 7th,
1987. Seconded by Commissioner Hargrave.
Motion passed, all ayes.
PUBLIC HEARING
1 year extension
Tentative 15050
T.J. Austyn Inc.
David Sawyer, Planning Director, stated that the
Planning Commission recommended approval of the
Tentative Tract map 13050 and Specific Plan 85-10
and City Council approved those items on September
12, 1985. In accordance with the Tentative Tract
Map Act, the approval of the Tentative Tract map is
set to expire on September 12, 1987.
Motion
PC-87-41
Tentative
Parcel 87-4
Blue Mtn.
Mr. Sawyer stated that staff has received a request
from the applicant requesting a one year extension,
and presented the staff report.
Commissioner Hargrave questioned if there were any
additional fees on the extension, and if the
project was close to completion.
Planning Director stated that there were no further
fees. He confirmed that the applicant has
indicated they are close to preparing the final
three phases for recordation, not necessarily
construction.
Commissioner Hargrave proposed that they grant the
extension for Tentative Tract 13050, Specific Plan
85-10, until September 12, 1988. Seconded by
Commissioner Van Gelder.
Chairman Caouette asked for
on this motion.
Motion passed, all Ayes.
any further discussion
Chairman Caouette asked for clarification as to
the applicant's request for continuance of this
item.
The Planning Director, David Sawyer, stated that
this was an application for a three -parcel minor
subdivision which coincided with the commercial
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development which the Site and Architectural Review
Board considered at their last meeting. The parcel
is north of DeBerry and south of Commerce Way.
They have requested that this item be continued
until after the General Plan hearings in October,
so that issue may be cleared up prior to the
approval of this map.
Chairman Caouette stated that the suggested
subdivision, located at 21920 DeBerry, has been
requested for continuance. He opened the Public
Hearings for discussion. No discussion. Chairman
Caouette asked for motion on continuance.
Motion
PC-87-42 Commissioner Van Gelder introduced motion for
continuance. Seconded by Commissioner Cole.
Motion carried, all Ayes.
Tentative
Parcel 87-5
Fox, Stephen Chairman Caouette introduced next item dealing with
request for a minor subdivision of 1.1 acres into 4
individual lots, on the southeast corner of Pico
Street and Blue Mountain Court.
Planning Director, David Sawyer, stated this was an
application by Mr. Stephen Fox and presented the
staff report.
Chairman Caouette opened discussion from staff.
Chairman Caouette asked the Planning Director for
the history of the zoning on this particular
parcel.
Mr. Sawyer stated that it is his understanding that
during the last General Plan consideration for this
area, the original intent by staff was that the
area be zoned as A-l. However, it was left as R-1
because there was a Tentative Map which was
approved at that time for this particular lot which
did divide it up into smaller lots. Since that
time the map has expired and no final map was
recorded. The applicant is now coming back to the
city requesting another Tentative Map.
Commissioner Hargrave requested that the conditions
be mentioned before starting the Public Hearing.
Mr. Sawyer read a memorandum presented to the
Planning Commission from -the City Engineer. The
conditions were mentioned per the staff report.
Mr. Sawyer noted that Blue Mtn. Court is a private
road and is not a dedicated public street, which
the City maintains.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if the new zoning
requirements were in effect for this property, how
many lots could be established.
The Planning Director stated if it were changed to
the R-1/40 zoning it would be 1 lot. If the
Commission decided to zone it as an R-1/20, it is
possible to have 2 lots.
Chairman Caouette asked if the rest of the lots on
Blue Mountain Court were 1 acre lots. Mr. Sawyer
replied yes.
PUBLIC HEARING CONVENED AT 7:20 P.M.
C.G. Engineering
David Baraquin
2627 S. Waterman
Applicant/Stephen Fox
Mr. Baraquin stated that all of the conditions have
met with their approval, should this be approved.
Disagreed with the finding in the proposed
resolution as not being physically suitable for the
development of this type. He stated that most
east/west streets were developed with the same type
of 7200 sq. ft. minimum lot size. He further
stated that this plan is consistent with present
General Plan and Zoning Ordinances. He felt that
it was more of an A-1 island than a R-1 island.
Chairman Caouettte asked for any comments from the
public in favor of this project.
Stephen Fox
owner/
382 E. Bonnie
View/Rialto Mr. Fox gave history of property since his purchase
in 1981. The first City Council meeting that he
attended in order to get the parcel map through he
was informed by the City that horses were no longer
allowed to any new applicants. Thus he decided to
divide to two 1/2 acre lots, estate type situation
since he was not allowed to sell as horse property.
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Met various problems with street realignment,
septic systems, widening of Pico Avenue, concrete
curb and gutter.
Chairman Caouette asked for any further favorable
statements from the public.
He then asked for any unfavorable comments from the
public.
Dennis Kidd
22874 Pico St.
G.T. Mr. Kidd stated that he was opposed to the
subdivision because it was out of character with
the large lots at the end of Pico Street. He felt
the topography of the land would not allow 4 lots.
Ted Smith
22873 Pico St.
G.T. Mr. Smith mentioned that he shared the east side
property line with the subject property. He was
opposed to it because the surrounding area
supported 1 acre lots, and putting a subdivision
with that density would degrade the neighborhood.
R-1 would be fine, R-2 possible, but 4 lots on that
acre would not be acceptable.
Mark Stein
12711 Blue Mt. Crt
G.T. Mr. Stein was opposed to the project due to it
being detrimental to the surrounding areas.
Karen Kiever
12714 Blue Mt. Crt.
G.T. Ms. Kiever stated that her main objection was that
the project was not compatible with the existing
housing around it. The project is too small for
such numerous lots. Expressed concern over the
access to the larger lots proposed by the plan.
The access appears to be on Blue Mt. Court and does
not appear to be wide enough to permit legally both
entrance and exit. She questioned if more property
was needed to provide entrance and exit along Blue
Mountain Court.
Joe Kicak
City Engineer Mr. Kicak stated that Blue Mountain Court is a
separately numbered parcel, owned by the property
owners along the frontage of that particular cul-
de-sac. Staff in preparing recommendation
i recognized that, "...offer for dedication to this
City as street width, recognized that may not be
possible." That would mean that somewhere down the
road, we would have to recognize if that map is
approved that Mr. Fox has several alternatives:
1) Purchase the R-O-W for that parcel,
2) Recognize that is a task which is virtually
impossible,
3) Leave Blue Mountain Court as a private street,
4) Open for dedication,
5 Sign agreement for future improvement of that
particular street if ever public R-O-W.
Mr. Kicak pointed out that without the cooperation
of all the property owners, Mr. Fox does not have a
legal ingress or egress without traffic problems.
Karen Kiever Ms. Kiever stated again that the property owners
had several problems with this project.
C.J. Engineering
Baraquin Mr. Baraquin stated that all of Blue Mountain Court
was offered for dedication by a parcel map in 1978.
He mentioned that as he understood the offers of
dedication are always open. Also, he stated that
the dedication has been accepted in the past. The
access would not be a problem, all that the City
would have to do would be to accept the standing
offer for dedication that already exists and was
offered by Mr. McKiever's office in 1978, parcel
map 3973.
Chairman Caouette questioned if the City would have
to maintain Blue Mountain Court.
Mr. Baraquin, C.J. Engineering, clarified that the
requirements for Mr. Fox were to install all of the
improvements and maintain it as a public street.
General discussion continued regarding the width
and dedication requirement.
Chairman Caouette asked for any further comments or
opposition to the project.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE CONVENED THE PUBLIC HEARING
Motion
PC-87-43 Commissioner Munson entered a motion, rather than
denying this project, to have the applicant waive
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j the project and see how it is handled under the
upcoming revision of the General Plan.
City Attorney, Ivan Hopkins, clarified that the
concurrence by the applicant would be needed before
the motion could be addressed.
Chairman Caouette directed the question to Mr. Fox.
Commissioner Munson mentioned two choices that Mr.
Fox would have. Either the Planning Commission
would deny the project or else they would continue
it and they needed his waiver to do so.
The Planning Director stated that with the possible
change to the Agricultural Overlay Zone would
probably be recommended also.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked of the Planning
Director if he anticipated a large number of
property owners wanting horses in that area which
would cause the Planning Commission to consider an
agricultural overlay.
Mr. Sawyer stated that from a visible observation
it appeared to be a .logical consideration.
Stephen Fox
Mr. Fox wondered if possibly a revision into three
lots facing Pico would not solve the problem. He
would like to waive it if a revision were possible.
Commissioner Cole stated that he understood the
motion as being they could not act on it until they
received Mr. Fox's approval on the request of
continuance.
Chairman Caouette stated that it should be
continued until the General Plan and Zoning
revision.
Mr. Fox asked if it was appropriate to convey that
right and appeal to the City Council.
Chairman Caouette stated that whether approved or
denied it was his right to take this to the City
Council.
City Attorney, Ivan Hopkins, concurred with same.
7
G.
Mr. Fox asked if he revised the project for a 3 lot
split would that be a new project.
The Planning Director stated that would require a
revised map to be submitted to the Planning
Director, however there would be no new fees.
Mr. Fox stated that he would waive the time limit
requirements.
City Attorney, Ivan Hopkins, stated that there
should not be a discussion on a revised map but
simply ask the applicant whether he waives or not.
Chairman Caouette directed same question to the
applicant.
Mr. Fox reiterated that he would waive,
Commissioner Cole seconded Commissioner Munson's
motion.
Commissioner Van Gelder expressed her concern over
the R-3 zoning moratorium and revision of the
General Plan in the past, causing conflict for the
applicants.
Chairman Caouette and Commissioner Cole expressed
appreciation for the opposition comments from the
surrounding property owners. He understood their
position of the potential access problem.
Commissioner Cole stated also that he was
sympathetic with the applicant. He has followed
the laws and made application under the current
rules. Commissioner Cole would be in favor of the
applicant's revision.
Chairman Caouette ended discussion and asked for
vote.
MOTION Motion carried, all AYES.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE ADJOURNED THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING -- FOR
A 15 MINUTE BREAK
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE RECONVENED THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING--
8:15 p.m.
CUP 87-7
0
M
APPLICANT/KEENEY
Combined Recreational Vehicle Park and Retail Shop Facility in C-
2 zone.
The Planning Director gave the background
information on the CUP project with the staff
report and conditions and stated that the Site and
Architectural Review will be addressed on another
agenda.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to the Planning
Commission Meeting minutes of July 6, 1987, page
13. He had asked the consultant/Mr. Geller as to
what would be appropriate for that site. Mr.
Geller stated that he could see a shopping center
development in this area. He stated that he would
find a RV Park intrusive.
Commissioner Hargrave further questioned the
Planning Director as to why he disagreed with the
consultant's opinion.
Mr. Sawyer felt that the overall use of this site
would be more advantageous as part of a larger
shopping center development. In speaking with the
applicant, Mr. Sawyer stated, the reason for•this
type of park is that there is at least some
commercial development which is in the front
portion of the lot. The rear portion which is
dedicated to the RV Park would be designed in a
manner that if an overall project were developed it
could be replaced without substantial hardship to
the owner of the property and worked into a future
development.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to the comments from
the Department of Transportation to the City
Engineer. That the easterly driveway as proposed,
not be constructed in close proximity to the
intersection of La Crosse and Barton Road as this
would create traffic safety problems. Developers
should construct driveway as close to the westerly
property line utilizing emergency exit as
additional driveway. Commissioner Hargrave stated
that the Department of Transportation was
recommending against putting that driveway which
would seem to completely change the proposal as to
the traffic situation.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, stated that it must be
recognized that La Crosse Avenue and Barton Road
and the extension of the westerly line of La Crosse
E
is actually within the state r-o-w. He does
recognize the problems with the proximity of this
driveway and potentially large turning radius of
35-50'. The problem of the driveway can be solved
at the expense of the interior radius.
Chairman Caouette pointed out that if their
recommendations were followed it would bring
increased traffic on Grand Terrace Road. We are
trying to limit that by restricting that exit to
emergency access only.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, referred to his comments
which suggested that the developer look at the
potential of coordinating with property owners the
access or the exit from the park into Grand Terrace
Road with respect to both traffic and the drainage
problem. Some provisions would have to be made to
keep drainage appropriate.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification of
item #3 of the Department of Transportation's
report, "...any additional widening to achieve it
should be provided on Barton Road to allow left
turn into the driveway."
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, stated that he understood
the recommendation to mean the Department of
Transportation had a concern with any traffic that
was coming from the west, specifically the La
r- Cadena area with one access to that point, they
want a median for a turning lane in the middle of
Barton Road.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if Barton Road was
situated where a left turn pocket could be there
now. If not, what would it take.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, stated that it is not
setup presently. Keeping in mind that we are
requesting that Barton Road be dedicated to 50'
width along the center line which places the curb
at 36' plus some additional 20' total of 56' feet
of paved section all in that particular roadway.
He stated that there are problems with that which
is the widening will occur beyond the point where
the entrance by Cal Trans is recommending.
Therefore it means that the widening will take
place to the west of the project to provide for
turning.
10
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Mr. Kicak further suggested that unless the area to
the west of the proposed park is approved there is
not adequate room for a left turn pocket lane.
Commissioner Hargrave asked how much street width
would be needed to enable a turning lane.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, stated that the minimum
needed is a storage for at least one large vehicle,
minimum of 50' west. At this time he visualized
that most of the traffic would be coming off the
freeway and making a right turn off of Barton Road
without a median island. However, ultimately if
there is any left turn that median would be needed.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if coming off the
freeway, making a right turn off of Barton, if they
don't need a median there.
Mr. Kicak explained that the traffic coming off the
freeway has to use the northerly lane to turn.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if there was enough
frontage coming off the freeway into the park with
a 50' rig, if Cal Trans doesn't allow the first
entry using the second.
Mr. Kicak explained that as the proposal presently
stands, no. He stated if they wished to do so, the
driveway should be moved easterly to accommodate
more turning radius.
The westerly entry should be moved easterly if
there is only one entry.
Commissioner Hargrave questioned if Grand Terrace
Road could accommodate the potential traffic. He
further asked how much work would have to be done
on Grand Terrace Road to bring it up to grade.
Mr. Kicak answered no to either in volume or
structural. He stated that it had been resurfaced
for light loads. He stated that area of Grand
Terrace Road should be designed to a traffic index
of 7 and that depends on the conditions to
determine what should be done.
Commissioner Hargrave speculated if there is a
potential for a traffic signal there because of the
increased traffic.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, agreed that there would
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be a traffic impact but could not speculate as to
just what it would be.
Chairman Caouette, referring back to the staff
report, stated that parking spaces do not account
for the 150 RV spaces and 1 for every 5 of regular
parking spaces. Thus, it means that there are
several RV spaces which would be lost because the
parking spaces would be adjacent to the RV spaces.
Mr. Sawyer clarified that the design concept was to
have them clustered throughout the park. The
condition of 1 parking space for every 5 RV's was
after taking a look at the City of Hemet's
ordinance on RV parks.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that the proposal has
more parking spaces than the Planning Department
considers necessary at this time, based on making
it a C-2 requirement.
Mr. Sawyer confirmed that they would have more
parking then would be necessary. However, if they
were to place the 1-5 ratio in addition it would
not have enough additional parking.
Commissioner Hargrave asked how many more would be
needed if they took the 1 for 5.
Mr. Sawyer answered approximately 25-30. There are
10 more than what is required, and approximately 20
new spaces depending on how many RV spaces they
would end up with after revising their plan.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification of
condition #5.
Mr. Sawyer stated that the 20' wide setback with
the 3' berm along Barton Road, would be in addition
to any dedication that would be required for Barton
Road. There is a potential that certain buildings
be moved back further than where they are at now.
The berming would be along the short area of La
Crosse right of way and the Barton Road right of.
way. The requirement for the 6' block wall would
be along the perimeter of the property everywhere
except where the right of way is adjacent to it.
The landscaping area is a requirement that is
appropriate for the commercial development. The
berming will give some type of sight relief and not
go over the 3' maximum for front yard site
requirements.
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3 Commissioner Van Gelder asked for clarification of
conditions #7 and #14.
The Planning Director stated that the open space
requirement was an attempt to prevent the area from
becoming a row of vehicles with both RV and
automobile parking. It was felt that if cluster
automobile parking was provided throughout that
area it will take away some of the desire and
temptations to pull a car into those spaces. Those
spaces would also be required to be landscaped and
paved.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification of
condition #19, television antenna. Would there be
a difference between the television antenna or
satellite.
The Planning Director stated that for the purpose
of the condition there would be no difference. The
purpose of the condition is that it allows the park
to provide one satellite antenna and that no other
satellite dish would be allowed on the other shops
or other RV permanent buildings.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if there was a
condition on the current code on satellite dishes
and their requirements.
Mr. Sawyer, Planning Director, stated that there
was not a specific requirement but there are height
restrictions, and location restrictions.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE OPENED THE PUBLIC HEARING
Bob Keeney/Applicant
12139 Mt. Vernon
Mr. Keeney stated that their project is a good
interim use of that land since there is no
additional property available. They are
approaching the problem of the ingress and egress
for the commercial and RV area. Agreed with Cal
Trans to conduct a traffic study. There would not
be a problem with drainage since the RV and
Commercial areas drain towards Grand Terrace Road.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification as to
the vehicles entering on the easterly entry. The
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RVs and vehicles sharing westerly ingress and
egress.
Mr. Keeney stated that the use is separated by an
island. After conferring with Cal Trans, that it
would be used either as an entrance only or if it
were an exit it would be a right turn only. They
will be hiring a Traffic Engineer to conduct a
study of the area.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for comments in regards
to the City Engineer's suggestion that entry/exit
on the west side be used towards the east to give
additional turning radius.
Mr. Keeney agreed with the City Engineer that there
was not enough traffic in one direction to warrant
that. When the property develops and there is an
increase in traffic then it should be considered.
Commissioner Munson asked if there would be a
problem with an increase of a parking space for
each 5 units.
Mr. Keeney stated that it would not become a
problem. The only problem they had with the
conditions was limiting the entrance to one.
Chairman Caouette asked for comments in support of
the project.
Ken McClelland
21812 Grand Terrace Rd.
Mr. McClelland owns properties directly opposite
the emergency exit and south of the emergency exit.
He expressed favor with the project. The
Conditional Use Permit met most of their concerns.
The drainage problem could be handle more
efficiently by not paving the emergency exit,
better water absorption. He favored not utilizing
the emergency exit.
David Trivest
22545 Barton Rd.
Mr. Trivest expressed support of the project. He
stated that any ingress/egress problems could be
addressed with the traffic study.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE CLOSED THE PUBLIC HEARING
Commissioner Hargrave asked if the Conditional Use
Issues adequately addressed the engineering
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concerns, prior to the final Conditional Use
Permit.
Chairman Caouette commented that there was one item
in contention, the access along Barton Road and
subsequent effect of use of the emergency access.
In addition to requiring more parking spaces we
would be looking at a redesigned project. If we
were to approve this project it would be a
Conditional Use Permit for a RV park.
Mr. Sawyer clarified that if the Commission
approved a Conditional Use Permit for a "RV park"
that met the conditions attached it would not be as
presented here but would need to be brought back
and approved by the Site and Architectural Review
on a site approval basis. Mr. Sawyer stated that
it would be appropriate to add a condition
regarding the traffic analysis and that the Site
and Architectural Review not be approved until that
analysis is done and can be made available to the
Commission.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to the City
Engineer's opinion of no potential problem with
drainage. Commissioner Hargrave requested
clarification as to whether there was a large
flooding problem.
Mr. Sawyer referred to condition #41, "...existing
drainage patterns shall be perpetuated in measures
to mitigate drainage impact should be included in
this development."
Mr. Sawyer stated that when this site plan is
brought back before the Site and Architectural
Review Board with its revised plans, that the plans
will need to meet the City Engineer's approval for
handling any drainage concerns.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if the Conditional Use
Permit does address what type of businesses would
be there in the commercial structures.
Mr. Sawyer, stated that any businesses that met the
criteria of the C-2 zone would be allowed.
Commissioner Hargrave asked the Planning Director
to check into the businesses allowed in the C-2
Zone to see if anything may present any
restrictions on this project later.
15
f_ Mr. Sawyer suggested that there are some building
l uses which would require a Conditional Use Permit.
Commissioner Hargrave asked what one of those uses
would be. He asked if an auto repair shop would be
the same as a RV repair shop.
Mr. Sawyer stated that he would consider that the
same. He pointed out that the shops range in size
from 900-5,000 sq. ft.
Mr. Sawyer stated that the Planning Commission
request the traffic analysis be submitted to the
S&A review prior to that board taking any action on
a revised plan. He also suggested that the
Planning Commission has the option of continuing
this project and asking that the revised plans be
brought back for review through the Conditional Use
Permit process.
Chairman Caouette stressed the importance of
needing the traffic study before a decision could
be made.
Mr. Sawyer stated that they may either go with the
conditions mentioned by the Department of
Transportation or the Planning Commission could
study it on their own with a traffic analysis.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that there was a
problem with going along with the Department of
�_. Transportation's suggestion, that traffic would be
coming out onto Grand Terrace Road.
Robert Keeney
The Planning Director recommended that they not
follow the Department of Transportation's
suggestion and keep it limited to an emergency exit
only. He indicated that the 50' wide requirement
on entry from Barton Road was based on the City of
Hemet's ordinance for a single entrance drive for a
RV park.
City Engineer, Joe Kicak, stated that a 50' paved
travel way would be adequate for the RV type of
vehicle. He mentioned that an outside traffic
study should be considered because it does impact
the immediate r-o-w adjacent to that entrance.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that the traffic study
should include Barton Road and Grand Terrace Road.
16
MOTION
PC-87-44
Mr. Keeney mentioned that Cal Trans had already
required them to do the traffic study. They plan
to have the problem of r-o-w before the Site and
Architectural Review. Mr. Keeney asked for approval
of the project subject to solving the traffic
problem prior to coming back for the Site and
Architectural Review.
Commissioner Hawkinson expressed his lack of
support for the project. He indicated that there
will be problems with traffic caused by this type
of project. Any paving and diversion of drainage
down Grand Terrace Road will aggravate a bad
situation.
Commissioner Van Gelder stated that she was against
the project earlier and still had concerns. She
expressed her concern with the 50' width and RV
traffic pattern. She felt there was a better use
for this area.
Commissioner Munson expressed his support for the
project. He stated that of all the projects he has
seen for this location, this was the best one.
Commissioner Munson made the motion to adopt CUP-
87-7 subject to the conditions stated in this
report and including said resolution. This would
include the traffic study.
Commissioner Munson asked for clarification that
all that is being considered this evening for
approval is the use of a RV park.
Planning Director stated that the CUP is being
considered for an RV Park and Commercial Center at
this site, subject to S&A review of revised plans
that will meet all of the conditions mentioned this
evening.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if this included the
traffic study.
The Planning Director stated that this would
include the traffic study and also mentioned that
an on -site property manager should be included as a
condition also. Conditions 38-41 had been taken
from the Cal Trans recommendations and that all
"shoulds" contained therein are to read "shall".
17
Chairman Caouette asked if the traffic study is to
be included as far as the final outcome and the
design of the project.
The Planning Director stated that the City Engineer
had implied that Cal Trans would require review of
the traffic study and its recommendations and that
it would be appropriate to make that a formal
condition for the CUP. Also to have City Engineer
review it .
Chairman Caouette asked if the question of drainage
had been addressed.
Mr. Sawyer stated that the question of drainage had
been adequately answered with the conditions in the
report.
Chairman Caouette directed discussion to the motion
on the floor with approval of the project with
listed conditions. Commissioner Hargrave seconded.
Commissioner Hargrave questioned if the residents
on the west side had access to the stores. He
asked if perhaps Mr. Keeney should not address this
design question tonight or when he comes back.
Mr. Sawyer suggested that this question could be
addressed at the Site and Architectural Review.
Commissioner Hawkinson expressed his opposition to
the project because of its various problems.
Chairman Caouette indicated he did not feel the RV
Park was compatible with the surrounding
residential and commercial uses. Any questions of
vehicle movement or circulation associated with any
project should come to the Planning Commission with
the project and not later.
Motion denied, 4 noes, 2 ayes. Commissioners
Munson and Hargrave voting aye. Commissioners Van
Gelder,- Hawkinson, Cole and Chairman Caouette
voting noe. CUP is denied.
Chairman Caouette indicated to Mr. Keeney that it
is his right to appeal before the City Council,
within a ten day appeal period.
18
Applicant/
The Advocate School
11980 Mt. Vernon Avenue
Mr. Sawyer presented the Staff report on the
private school facility to be constructed in the R-
3 zone and recommended approval.
PLANNING COMMISSION DISCUSSION
Commissioner Van Gelder referred to the Planning
Director's recommendation of 90 students enrollment
as being in the current development or considering
the future development.
Mr. Sawyer stated that the applicant had indicated
the current development was designed to handle 80
students. He stated that none of the conditions
mentioned earlier take in consideration those few
areas on the plans that are indicated as any
additional development other than what we are
specifically looking at tonight and any other
additions would require further review at the time
that it is being proposed.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if there would be a
need for future parking spaces at the time of
further development.
Mr. Sawyer stated that the parking would have to be
looked at the time any future square footage would
t be added to the buildings.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked that since there were
a limited amount of parking spaces now where were
the additional parking spaces going to be obtained
from if needed later.
The Planning Director referred to the existing
building being proposed and there is an outline for
future building expansion area. Any area that
would be expanded out here would have to
incorporate enough area to provide the parking.
Commissioner Van Gelder questioned the Mt. Vernon
Avenue public street being used for parking or a
red curb area.
Mr. Sawyer questioned if she was referring to the
west side of Mt. Vernon Avenue. He mentioned the
on -street parking was not considered in planning
this design. Mr. Sawyer did not know if the
19
engineer had taken this into consideration. All of
the required parking spaces are provided on site.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked for clarification if
there would be on -street parking allowed as
proposed.
Mr. Sawyer stated to the affirmative that there
would be on -street parking allowed.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked for the height and
quantities of berms on the Mt. Vernon side.
The Planning Director stated as to the height
restriction it was about 3' in the proximity of the
front yard setback due to the site requirements for
the driveway. The quantity would be addressed this
evening.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if there was any
proposal of the structure having a second floor
with an elevator. He mentioned that if they are
looking at a potential usage of this as a
commercial structure there should be an elevator.
David Sawyer indicated that there was an elevator.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that he would need to
have this addressed in more detail at some point in
time.
t Commissioner Hargrave expressed the importance of
clear visibility into this property from Mt. Vernon
Avenue to reduce any vandalism problems. The short-
term parking area could be a potential problem if
used by the public at night and if hidden from the
street view the police would have difficulty
ascertaining what is going on.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification of
the radial short term parking. He approved of the
plan but wished to make sure that the
ingress/egress on that area is wide enough to
withstand vehicles entering and leaving at the same
time. There should be a flexibility in regards to
the vehicles leaving the radius so that they won't
contribute to a traffic problem.
Commissioner Hargrave commented on the properties
abutting the project site. He stated that to the
north there is vacant property zoned R-3, and to
the west have vacant property which is also zoned
Me
R-3. Referring to the upcoming General Plan and
Zoning discussions in October, he asked the
Planning Director if there are any changes which
might effect the zoning of those particular vacant
parcels.
Mr. Sawyer referred to his previous discussions
with Consultant Ross Geller. He did not foresee any
changes to the northern properties zoned as R-3.
Mr. Sawyer referred to the next Planning Commission
meeting which will review the second phase of
Forest City Dillon. He anticipated that those
properties will remain the same, zoned as R-3.
This particular property (Advocate School) is
adjacent to the AP property to the south, and would
be appropriate that this could be changed to AP.
Mr. Sawyer mentioned that either way a private
school use would be acceptable using this permit in
the R-3 zone or the AP zone.
Commissioner Hargrave asked of the City
Engineer/Joe Kicak if there was any part of this
property encompassing any elevation on Mt. Vernon.
If so, will that have to be cut down. .
Mr. Kicak mentioned that the northern part of the
property is probably on the upgrade and does not
know of any future plans to lower Mt. Vernon, as
far as the crest is concerned. No problems exist
with the visibility, speed limit or sight distance
for stopping on Mt. Vernon. However, Mr. Kicak
cautioned that when the driveways come in on this
project they would have to be studied closely due
to the traffic coming over the crest from the north
meeting exiting traffic from the driveways.
Commissioner Hargrave asked the City Engineer what
the distance was from the crest to the first
driveway.
Mr. Kicak answered that there would be visual
sighting of the driveway from 250-300 ft., once the
parcel to the north is improved.
Commissioner Hargrave asked where the cutouts for
the street on the east side of Mt. Vernon were
located.
Mr. Kicak pointed to the area under discussion, to
the south of the project.
21
Commissioner Hargrave asked about making a left
turn coming from the southern direction of Mt.
Vernon into the school, would there be a need for a
left turn lane there.
Mr. Kicak agreed that there should probably be one
there. He did point out that the easterly portion
of Mt. Vernon does not have an adequate right-of-
way for widening. If parking is restricted and a
lane is placed in there, a turning lane may be
possible.
Commissioner Hargrave asked the City Attorney if
they could legally exclude parking on the east side
of Mt. Vernon.
Mr. Hopkins, City Attorney, stated that they could
recommend that be done by the City Council.
Commissioner Hargrave clarified that the residents
that abut that area would not be able to park in
the street, if the City Council made that illegal
parking.
Commissioner Van Gelder expressed her support but
had concern with some of the problems in the
project. She stated that she did not see any
problems with the traffic exiting to the south but
did see problems with traffic exiting from the
driveway into the northern direction. She asked if
0 �; it were possible to have the entrance only on the
north and exit only on the south drive, to
alleviate some of the problem. However, anyone
wanting to make a left-hand turn into the site
would have the same problem with traffic travelling
south.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if more property
along that side of the street would be widened 11'
ft. in the future.
Mr. Kicak, City Engineer, mentioned that there was
only one parcel that was not involved in the R-3
proposal at this time. All of that frontage with
the exception of Dr. Mc Duffey's property would be
improved in the near future.
Commissioner Van Gelder clarified that any portion
of that street could have a red curb on it and it
doe not need to be the whole street or area.
22
4. Mr. Kicak, City Engineer, stated that City Council
directed staff to write Dr. Mc Duffey a letter
offering as consideration for dedication the
insulation of the improvements in conjunction with
that project. Mr. Kicak mentioned that Dr. Mc
Duffey has not reached a decision so there is
potential that whole area could be improved,
including Dr. Mc Duffey's property; from Barton
Road all the way to Grand Terrace Canal.
Chairman Caouette asked what the ages of the
students would be.
Mr. Sawyer stated that it would be from grade
school up through high school.
Commissioner Hargrave asked for clarification about
the fencing needed on the south portion of the
project as mentioned in the staff report.
Mr. Sawyer explained that the plans indicate that
there is an existing fence on this perimeter along
the property line. Regarding the old fence all
that is remaining is the post. It is adjacent to
future office development and other developments.
An adequate noise and visibility barrier should be
provided.
Commissioner, Van Gelder asked if there were any
plans for any type of fencing on the front of the
property.
Mr. Sawyer stated that there were not any fences
indicated on the plans. Certain areas have the 6'
High block wall to enclose the play areas.
Commissioner Van Gelder expressed her concern for
security.
Mr. Sawyer mentioned that there is a block wall
that incorporates the play area and another area.
Also, there is a rod iron fence 6' high which runs
along a certain portion to secure the parking
areas.
Chairman Caouette opened the Public Hearings.
Melford Harrison
Consultant
24899 Taylor St.
Loma Linda, CA.
23
�..�+ Mr. Harrison introduced the Directors of the
Advocate School, Amy Harrison and Dr. Martha Petre.
Also, present was the architect/Rick Avery.
Mr. Harrison explained that the idea and intention
of this application was to provide permanent
facilities that will be more compatible with the
residential areas and also the convalescent center
to the south taking into consideration the
landscaping and buffer area.
He stated that they agreed with most of the
conditions proposed the only relief they asked was
relative to the fencing. They found the
proposition of a 6' block wall very expensive.
They request that the Planning Commission consider
a condition which would allow them to have a chain
link fence, full -screen landscaping, that would
achieve a height of 6' in a reasonable amount of
time.
Mr. Harrison clarified that the ages in the school
are from age 6 to age 18.
Commissioner Munson agreed with the request for a
chain link fence in lieu of a block wall. He
praised the project and felt it would be an asset
to the City.
ti Chairman Caouette asked what the normal hours of
operation would be.
Mr. Harrison stated that the school would be
operating on normal school hours.
Chairman Caouette asked if most of the students
were bussed.
Mr. Harrison confirmed that most of the students
were bussed by the van pool.
Chairman Caouette asked if there would be a
landscape buffer with a wall adjacent to the
convalescent home..
Mr. Harrison stated that there would be a wall
which would enclose the play area, immediately
south of the building.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if this particular
facility was not designed to take only local
children.
24
C),
Mr. Harrison clarified that the only students that
are enrolled are direct referrals from the public
school district.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if the owners of the
project felt comfortable with enrollment of 90
students.
Mr. Harrison stated that there may have been a
misunderstanding when the 80 figure was given. It
was intended to mean the additional students for
the new facility, the expansion of the facility.
He felt that he may have inadvertently misled Mr.
Sawyer, when the additional square footage being
proposed would accommodate up to 80 additional
students. They have in the area of 40 students at
this time, so that would make a total of 120
students. Mr. Harrison requested that they change
the total to 120 to correct the misunderstanding.
Commissioner Van Gelder mentioned that the State
provides regulations on square footage required for
student population. She asked if this type of
school was in compliance with the State
regulations.
Mr. Harrison mentioned that his applicant stated
that there is a capacity under State regulations
for a much higher student population with this size
of facility. He stated that they would support the
City control of student population and before they
go beyond that number they would be willing to come
before the Planning Commission.
Commissioner Van Gelder stated that it was
indicated earlier there were 40 students with 8
adults on the premises.
Mr. Harrison stated that there would actually be 8
teachers plus support staff of 5.
Commissioner Van Gelder referred to the palm trees
on the southerly portion between this project and
the convalescent hospital, if they were on the
school's property.
Mr. Harrison believed that they were on the
convalescent center's property.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if The Advocate
School was a chain.
25
(7)
Mr. Harrison mentioned that there were 8
facilities.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked for a percentage of
students from San Bernardino County as proposed to
Riverside County.
Mr. Harrison stated that there was approximately
30-35%.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if they had a
contract with the City of Riverside and the County
of San Bernardino.
Mr. Harrison stated that the contracts are through
the school districts.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if this school
project was incorporated and if the school owned
the property.
Mr. Harrison stated that yes it was incorporated
and that the school was on a long term lease. He
stated that the approval of the Conditional Use
Permit was the last thing they go through before
they close escrow and take possession of the
property.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if this property was
purchased from the County of Riverside.
Mr. Harrison stated that it was purchased from the
church.
Amy Harrison
Director of
Advocate School
Ms. Harrison stated it was difficult to estimate
when the future development if any would take
place.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked how many
administrators were on the site.
Ms. Harrison answered that currently they have a
Director, two Program Directors, one Curriculum
Coordinator, Counselors and teachers.
Commissioner Hargrave asked if there was any signs
planned for the school.
26
C
Mr. Harrison stated that signs would be used only
for identification.
Commissioner Van Gelder expressed her concern about
keeping the traffic out of the parking lot when the
school is not in session.
Mr. Harrison suggested that it could best be
handled by putting up some type of barrier when the
school closes.
The City Engineer, Joe Kicak, mentioned that there
were two parcels owned by the church. One fronting
on Mt. Vernon and the other behind. He asked if
this project involved both parcels.
The Commissioners indicated that it included both.
Commissioner Munson asked if there was any
consideration for funding of signalization on Mt.
Vernon.
The City Engineer, Joe Kicak, mentioned that
previously City Council had not reached a definite
decision on procedures in regards to traffic
signals and contributions by the various
developers. It had always been thought that the
capital improvement fees at least at this point
would be the vehicle which would help fund any
street improvements which would include the traffic
signal program.
The City Attorney, Ivan Hopkins, referred to the
Briton Project as an example. He stated that the
City Council did determine that as the properties
develop that the pro-rata share would be allocated
to them based upon the pro-rata share of the total
units and traffic. He figured that this particular
project as proposed did not have a great deal of
traffic and therefore the pro-rata share would be
minimal as compared to others.
Commissioner Cole asked if that fee was based on
units or square footage of the land involved.
Mr. Hopkins stated that the City Council never gave
a formula just directed that it would be a
consideration. He thought that would be based on
the traffic generation which would be equitable at
least to the apartments of two units.
27
Commissioner Munson stated that if the school
should turn this project into an office building
and then the traffic structure would change.
Mr. Harrison mentioned that they do not have any
future plans for turning the school into an office.
Commissioner Munson asked if they could put a
condition on the usa a and also, if the pro ect
does not pass would he appplicant have to come �ack
for an additional permit to turn it into a office
building.
Mr. Sawyer clarified that if the office use went to
an AP zone they would be able to come in without a
Conditional Use Permit. The applicant would have
to address any building modifications and sign
permits for any new type of development. Parking
would have to facilitate any new project use.
Mr. Sawyer mentioned that he had conferred with the
City Attorney as to whether or not it would be
possible to put a condition on this use. That if
it is no longer used as a school facility that some
type of fees could be applicable to an office type
development. He also mentioned that it would be
difficult to enforce.
Commissioner Munson asked where the money would
come from to support the traffic signals. He felt
that the owner of the building should contribute
their fair share.
The City Attorney clarified that when the
discussion arose at the City Council it was
initiated by Bill Marrhan, partner of Britton.
They both complained that the particular project
was having to bear a heavier burden of the cost of
the public improvements. The Council indicated
that they wanted the other projects as they
developed to share their pro—rata costs in the
traffic signal as well as the other public
improvements.
Commissioner Munson asked if this should be
addressed this evening or at a later date.
Mr. Hopkins stated that it could be addressed
tonight or make a general condition that it would
be a contribution which would be arrived at in
negotiation with the developers and brought back to
the Planning Commission for approval or whatever.
28
He further mentioned that if it is not approached
by the Planning Commission, then he did not know
how the contribution would be made.
Commissioner Munson made the motion to include a
condition which would be made prior to final
approvals that the developer meet with staff to
arrive at a mutually acceptable improvement
contribution for the improvements in the area
necessitated due to the development.
Chairman Caouette suggested waiting until the close
of the Public Hearing and they were ready to
address the project.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE OPENED THE PUBLIC HEARING.
David Trivest
22545 Barton Road
GT. Trivest and Assoc.
Mr. Trivest represented the insurance firm for the
Advocate School. He stated that has never been a
liability claim and is in favor of the project.
CHAIRMAN CAOUETTE ADJOURNED THE PUBLIC HEARING.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that he did not
approve of the brick wall and suggested another
proposal. His suggestion was a fencing that
allowed more visibility into the area with
alternate landscaping.
Chairman Caouette asked if the applicant could work
with the Planning Director for a chain link fence.
Mr. Sawyer stated that was acceptable to him. His
reasoning for introducing the brick wall as fencing
was to reduce the noise level. He mentioned that
adequate landscaping can be worked out between
staff.
MOTION
PC-87-45 Motion made to have the fencing materials, and
improvements acceptable to staff and the applicant.
Chairman Caouette introduced the motion with
Commission Cole seconded.
Mr. Sawyer suggested a chain link fencing with
section of landscaping.
29
i
4 J� Chairman Caouette suggested berms throughout.
Commissioner Hargrave raised the question that the
120 students enrollment issue had not been settled.
Chairman Caouette mentioned that there was still a
motion on the floor.
Motion carried, all AYES.
Mr. Sawyer stated that there are 40 students still
housed in temporary trailers. That they should be
looking at 100 instead of 120, depending on the use
of the existing church building.
Commissioner Cole clarified that they were looking
at the new facility plan tonight and asked if it
was designed for 120 students.
Mr. Harrison clarified that the proposed facility
could house 120 students without future expansion.
MOTION
PC-87-46 Commissioner Fran Van Gelder moved that a cap be
set on 100 students. Commissioner Munson seconded.
MOTION
Commissioner Hargrave asked why it should be set at
100 students.
Commissioner Van Gelder explained that they need to
give additional room for these children.
Commissioner Hargrave mentioned that another 20
students would mean 2 more additional vans. He
felt this would give the architect the space asked
for with the 120 students.
Mr. Trivest pointed out that the State law allows
260 students, 15 per classroom, for* this type of
school.
Chairman Caouette asked if there was a problem with
this from Planning.
Mr. Sawyer said that if the building was designed
to handle 120, he did not have a problem with the
120 students.
Chairman Caouette mentioned that there was still a
motion on the floor of a cap of 100 students.
30
PC-87-47
Motion voted showing 3 AYES, 2 Noes but it was
pointed out by the City Attorney that the required
number was not present to pass the motion.
Chairman Caouette asked about after hours parking
and what arrangements had been done for this.
MOTION
PC-87-48
Commissioner Van Gelder brought up a condition to
secure after hours parking. Seconded by
Commissioner Cole.
Motion carried, all AYES.
Mr. Harrison pointed out that would not be a
problem putting a set barrier for closure.
City Attorney stated that they should be more
concerned with preventing public use after hours.
MOTION
PC-87-49
Commissioner Van Gelder presented a condition on
barriers to restrict public use in the parking lot
when the school is not in session and during
evening hours. Seconded by Chairman Caouette.
Motion carried all AYES.
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if the teachers stay
after 5:00 p.m.
Commissioner Munson moved that a pro rata share be
placed on the project for future expansion.
Seconded for discussion by Commissioner Hargrave.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that they need more
input from Joe Kicak, City Engineer.
Joe Kicak stated that if they wanted a condition it
could state traffic signalization with pro rata
share, within block of Grand Terrace Road and Canal
Avenue and Mt. Vernon at their discretion.
Ivan Hopkins discussed on site landscaping
improvements.
Commissioner Cole proposed condition on the school
not as a future professional office building.
MOTION
PC-87-50
Commission Munson stated that a condition is needed
for today that will show any future traffic
31
expansion the pro rata should be paid by the
current applicant.
Ivan Hopkins clarified that for the cost figures,
can only use the costs of today.
Commissioner Hargrave stipulated that the owner of
the property at that time should carry the pro-
rata share.
Motion carried, 4 AYES and 1 noe, Commissioner
Hargrave voting noe.
Ivan Hopkins stated that they should make the
condition today for future owner of property on the
pro rata share. He mentioned that there is no fair
projection unless using today's cost and making
conditions on offside improvements.
Commissioner Hargrave questioned the Chaparral
Pines and their future costs.
Mr. Harrison expressed his opposition to the pro-
rata fee for future expansion and traffic flow. He
suggested having a CUP for school use only and if
needed will get an additional CUP, if needed.
Commissioner Van Gelder questioned the CUP being
used for school use and with the October scheduled
General Plan and Zoning changes going to AP.
�-
Mr. Sawyer clarified that the CUP is in a R-3, with
possible zone change to AP. The CUP would not be
required for an office facility in the AP zone.
Ivan Hopkins stated an additional recommendation
could be made to have an additional CUP later, if
needed.
MOTION
PC-87-51 Commissioner Cole moved for an additional
condition that if the school type changes, or use,
that an additional CUP be required. Commissioner
Fran Van Gelder seconded.
Motion carried, all AYES.
Commissioner Cole made a motion that CUP-87-6, be
passed with conditions as written and added the
pro-rata and CUP. Chairman Caouette seconded.
32
Mr. Sawyer stated the Negative Declaration needed
to be added.
MOTION
PC-87-52 Commissioner Hargrave moved that the Negative
Declaration be added also. Commissioner Munson
seconded.
CUP 87-7 Chairman Caouette brought up CUP-87-7.
Commissioner Hargrave suggested that CUP-87-7 be
deferred to the next meeting.
MOTION
PC-87-53 Commissioner Van Gelder moved that CUP-87-7 be
brought to the next meeting. Commissioner Hargrave
seconded.
Motion carried, all ayes.
Mr. Harrison stated that they would need more time
for preparation on the conditions presented.
Stated that they could return for the September 21,
1987 meeting.
SITE AND ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD CONVENED
SA-87-8 Chairman Caouette brought up the SA-87-8, Advocate
0 School Project.
as] I6
PC-87-54 Commissioner Cole moved that they be continued to
the September 21, 1987 meeting. Commissioner
Hargrave seconded.
Motion carried, all AYES.
SITE AND ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD ADJOURNED.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:00 P.M.
Respectfull submitted,
----- _ '------- Approved b
David- awyer pp y
Planning Director
N rman Caouette, Chairman
Planning Department
33