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GRAND TERRACE PLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 2, 1987
The regular meeting of the Grand Terrace Planning Commission was
called to order at the Grand Terrace Civic Center, 22795 Barton
Road, Grand Terrace, California, on November 2, 1987 at 7:00 p.m.
by Chairman Norman Caouette.
PRESENT: Fran Van Gelder, Vice -Chairwoman
Jerry Hawkinson, Commissioner
Gerald Cole, Commissioner
Stanley Hargrave, Commissioner
Ray Munson, Commissioner
Jim Sims, Commissioner
ABSENT: Norman Caouette, Chairman
Pledge of Allegiance: Gerald Cole
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MINUTES
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WORKSHOP CONVENED AT 6:30 P.M.
A general discussion between the Planning
Commission and staff regarding parking layout
issues for the retirement hotel project.
WORKSHOP ADJOURNED AT 7:00 P.M.
PLANNING COMMISSION CONVENED AT 7:00 P.M.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder called the Planning
Commission to order.
MINUTES Minutes for July 20, 1987, September 8, 1987 and
September 21, 1987 for discussion.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder mentioned that page 7
was missing from the July 20, 1987 minutes. She
asked if that meant that the minutes could not be
approved if a page was missing.
The Planning Director stated that these minutes
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could be continued.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to the 1st
page under PCM-87-35, nominations were opened up
for Vice -Chairperson, it should have stated that
Ray Munson nominated Commissioner Fran Van Gelder
for Vice -Chairperson.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to page 2, 4th
paragraph, "Commissioner Van Gelder moved that the
minutes be accepted with the corrections.
Seconded by Planning Commissioner." Vice -
Chairwoman Van Gelder asked for the name of the
Planning Commissioner.
The Planning Director stated that staff would
check on that.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked for any further
corrections before page 6. She referred to the
bottom of page 6, "Chairman Caouette adjourned
Public Hearing," there should be something in
front of the first three lines at the bottom of
the page.
The Planning Director acknowledged the request.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to page 13,
two paragraphs from the bottom, there was never a
second to the motion.
The Planning Director asked if there was a vote on
the motion or was there a new motion.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder stated that it was not
indicated but mentioned perhaps it was not
seconded.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder stated that
Commissioner Cole thought he had seconded that
motion, but it did not show that it was seconded
or voted on.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked if they needed to
have a vote to continue this to the next meeting.
The Planning Director stated that they would just
continue them to the next meeting.
September 8th Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to the minutes
of the September 8th, 1987 meeting and asked for
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any additions or corrections.
Commissioner Ray Munson stated that he was not
present that night.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to page 6. He
mentioned that Chairman Caouette made the
statements in the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th paragraphs
and he made the statement of the 8th paragraph.
MOTION
PCM-87-75 Commissioner Hargrave moved that the minutes of
September 8th, 1987, be approved with the
corrections. Commissioner Hawkinson seconded.
Motion carried, all ayes. 5-0-1-1.
Minutes
September 21 Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to page 3,
next to the last paragraph, "r-o-a..." asked if
that meant right of way.
The Planning Director stated that was correct.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder referred to page 10,
stated that the speaker's name should be Barney
Karger. She stated that Tony Petta was listed as
11875 Eton, which she assumed was correct. The
next page showed Allan Thomas as the same address,
which may be correct also she was not sure.
Commissioner Van Gelder also referred to page 7,
6th paragraph from the bottom, she mentioned that
she had spoken with Chairman Caouette and he
recalled that he had stated Mt. Vernon and not
Barton Road.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to page 10 and
speaker Barney Karger's correct street should be
Bernardo Way and not Bernard. He also referred to
page 12, 3rd paragraph, "Commissioner Hargrave
referred to Mr. Petta's comments on the design of
12 per acre and 3 3/4." Commissioner Hargrave
stated that he thought he said 12 3/4 units per
acre and 3 senior bonus units not 3 3/4.
Commissioner Munson stated that he believed that
it was accurately stated in the minutes.
The Planning Director stated that it actually
works out where it was 12 units per acre, with 3%
increase for senior citizens happened to be 3.75
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units per acre which brought it up to 15.75.
There may have been some misunderstanding on
whether or not it was 3 additional units or the
3%.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that there was a
difference between the two.
The Planning Director stated that the minutes
should read 3% senior bonus or 3.75 additional
density.
Commissioner Hargrave stated that he would agree
to either one of them.
The Planning Director stated that it should be
left at the 3%, that way the 12 units would not
have -to be changed.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to page 15, 3rd
paragraph from the bottom, "the Planning Director
stated there was 12% density..." and that was not
a correct statement.
The Planning Director stated that it should read
12 units per acre density.
Commissioner Hargrave referred to page 15, 2nd
paragraph, and mentioned that he would like to
change the word "...would," for could.
Commissioner Sims referred to page 11, 4th
paragraph from the bottom, the statement that he
supposedly made would need clarification. He
believed the issue he was addressing was the
existing sewer problems, whether Dr. McDuffy's
property would be able to sewer through the
development and continue on down.
The Planning Director stated that staff would
listen to the tape for clarification.
Commissioner Sims referred to page 15, 5th
paragraph from the top, where Chairman Caouette
added that the previous conditions included to add
22 parking spaces to 58 spaces according to
Commissioner Sims that statement did not seem to
flow.
Commissioner Sims asked if the question was that
extra guest spaces were being restricted.
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The Planning Director stated that Chairman
Caouette had asked about condition #2 which they
had put on in order to add parking. The condition
was that the guest parking would be identified and
then there was discussion regarding a reduction
and he believed that the percentage reduction had
gone down 75%. He mentioned that staff could go
back and do it verbatim.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder mentioned page 11, last
paragraph, believed that it should read
Commissioner Van Gelder asked if Dr. McDuffy's
property is not purchased now but perhaps later.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked if they needed to
wait until staff brought back the corrected
minutes.
The Planning Director stated that they should
continue these minutes.
PLANNING COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 7:25 P.M.
GP/Z-87-3
1 CDS ENGINEERING
RETIREMENT HOTEL
The Planning Director presented the project with
the conditions and recommendations by staff and
the reviewing agencies. The Planning Department
recommends that the Planning Commission in two
separate motions recommend that City Council
approve the General Plan 87-3 and Zoning Amendment
87-3 and their associated Negative Declaration.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked for any questions
from staff.
Commissioner Munson asked if the 5% landscaping
requirement included the landscaping along Barton
Road, or if it was over and above.
The Planning Director stated that was above. He
mentioned that the applicant had presented 8.8%
landscaping in the parking area. He pointed to
the areas that were not included in the plan.
He further identified the current line of the
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General Plan and Zoning designations along a
particular property line where it is being
proposed.
Commissioner Sims asked if it would be proper for
him to ask about circulation problems this
evening.
The Planning Director stated that he could mention
any comments or suggestions and they would be
included in staff requirements and approval if so
directed.
Commissioner Sims wanted to make sure that they
were there to talk about the General Plan and
Zoning Change.
The Planning Director stated that the hearing was
on the General Plan and Zoning Amendment. It was
also important to give staff input on approval of
the landscaping and parking layout. It would be
up to the Chairman if they would like to have the
vote and deal with the Zoning and General Planning
issues separately and take care of that and on the
parking layout or put them both together.
Commissioner Sims stated that would be fine with
him if the Chairman desired to do it that way.
The Planning Director stated that the City
Attorney reminded him that they still have the
Public Hearing portion of it yet on the General
Plan and Zoning Amendment.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder opened the Public
Hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING CONVENED 7:30 P.M.
Michael Palmer
CDS Engineering
18002 Skypark Circle
Irvine, CA.
Mr. Palmer stated that they were back this evening
requesting approval of the project here and not
for approval of the commercial structure as
discussed. They had a couple of questions in
regards to the City Engineer's recommendations.
He expressed concern with condition #3, the
traffic signals and the payment of proportionate
share. He stated they needed to know as far as
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dollars and cents what that would be.
The Planning Director stated that they would be
working with the City Engineer to come up with a
concrete figure before the City Council meeting.
He stated that they do not have that cost figure
tonight but they would have it for the City
Council Hearing. He mentioned that it boiled down
to the fact whether or not the Commission felt it
was appropriate or not for the applicant to pay
that pro-rata share based on the formula worked
out by the City Engineer.
Mr. Palmer referred to recommendation #4 where it
mentioned that the applicant record a one lot
subdivision. He mentioned that what they would
like to do would be a lot line adjustment instead
and if there were a difference between the two.
The Planning Director stated that one of the
reasons why the City Engineer put the one lot
subdivision requirement was that it provided
corners to be set which is not always done with
lot line adjustment.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked for public
comments in favor or opposition to the project.
PUBLIC HEARING ADJOURNED AT 7:32 P.M.
PLANNING COMMISSION DISCUSSION CONVENED AT 7:32 P.M.
Commissioner Sims mentioned that staff should look
at the entrance circulation and how vehicles would
be able to turn once they have entered. He stated
that there should be some type of radius on the
median island or eliminate that area unless it was
needed for landscaping requirements. Commissioner
Sims asked if the posts that support the roof were
partially installed or were they going to be
installed.
Mr. Palmer replied that they had already been
installed.
Commissioner Sims asked what type of vehicle was
intended to be driven through there and saw a
problem with making such a sharp turn.
Mr. Palmer explained that it was his belief that
was already approved through the original site
plan.
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The Planning Director stated that was correct and
asked what type of vehicles they had in mind when
they designed the plan.
Mr. Palmer explained just the small vans,
transportation vans used for car pooling.
Commissioner Sims recommended to the Planning
Director that he take another look at this again.
He mentioned that there were certain turning
radius which needed to be angled more to get out.
He also asked if there were provisions for traffic
to turn around and head back out towards Barton
Road. He saw an additional problem with being
able to make that turn.
The Planning Director stated that staff would meet
with the City Engineer and have him reevaluate the
radius problem, loading zone and parking area
around stalls #18 and #20. He mentioned that they
had gone forward with the building permits that
had been issued earlier and began construction on
the building. They have not met the parking
requirements but they did receive building permits
so they started construction and the parking had
been designed at that time with relation to the
building. He mentioned that they have gone
forward and put these improvements in per approved
building permits regarding the structure itself
not the landscaping, parking etc. Therefore, when
staff takes a look at this they will be looking at
the changing the landscaping but they do have to
deal with what has been built out there now.
The Planning Director gave an early history on the
project.
Commissioner Sims asked if the canopy was part of
the earlier structural building permit.
The Planning Director stated that was correct.
Commissioner Sims mentioned that if they could
revise that area to improve the movement it would
be a good idea. He mentioned that they could lose
one handicapped space and he did not know how that
would affect the project overall, some
consideration should be given there.
The Planning Director stated that staff would take
that into consideration.
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Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder opened discussion for a
motion.
Commissioner Munson referred to item #9 which
asked for a 6' solid masonary wall which was to be
established along the westerly side of the project
and he did not see that at the end of the parking
perimeter along the westerly side.
The Planning Director mentioned that when those
conditions were written and put onto the project,
that property was not included in the project.
Commissioner Munson stated that the wall would
tend to solve some of the traffic problems that
would occur from Reed Street to Barton Road as a
short cut. He mentioned that he would like to see
eliminating the access onto Reed Street unless it
is needed for fire emergency.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked if it could be an
exit only.
The Planning Director mentioned that it should be
noted that the traffic would be going onto Barton
Road if the access were not there. It would
eliminate the residents' option of coming in at
the secondary access entrance.
Commissioner Munson mentioned that sooner or later
there should be signalization at Canal Street
which would eliminate some of the concerns.
Commissioner Hargrave mentioned that there were
problems with the circulation to the south of the
hotel. He stated that if the block wall was put
up and impeded the traffic on the west side going
in or out, except for the fire lane, then the
traffic would have to exit from the south side
through the existing driveways. The other
alternative would be that they would have to exit
through the area that Commissioner Sim's referred
to between the trash bins and service area.
The Planning Director stated that there were two
options available. One would be to leave the
access open and the other would be to cut off this
traffic from the apartments. He mentioned that
the traffic can go onto Reed and Barton right now
but the Planning Commission can look at other
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alternatives
Commissioner Hargrave stated that he would like
to know what the City Engineer's input would be on
these new parking changes and traffic flow
problems.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked about the effect
on fire exits.
Commissioner Cole stated that blocking access onto
Reed Street made the parking awkward. He
mentioned that unless a turnaround were provided
at the end then the traffic would have to back
Out.
The Planning Director stated that there was no
access from Reed Street to Barton Road through
this area.
Commissioner Hawkinson referred to item #7 and
that it seemed clear that streets needed to be
provided as part of this project. If the traffic
were one way and if there were something to insure
that this would remain one way traffic, then there
would not be a problem. However, he stated that
his real concern was of the traffic in the
apartment complex coming through this project and
adding to the element of traffic already. He
mentioned that one way traffic would be a solution
and could solve the turn around problem.
The Planning Director stated that he was informed
by the City Attorney that this would need to be
advertised as a separate issue if they wish to
have it removed. If the Planning Commission would
like this item brought back for the parking layout
then it could be advertised for the next meeting.
The Planning Commission may wish to consider
moving the lines tonight or do it all at the next
meeting.
Commissioner Cole stated that he would like to
wait until the City Engineer submits his study on
the parking layout.
MOTION
PCM-87-76
GP-87-3 Commissioner Cole moved for approval of GP-87-3,
as recommended by staff. Commissioner Hawkinson
seconded.
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Motion carried, all ayes. 6-0-0-1.
MOTION
PCM-87-77
Z-87-3 Commissioner Hawkinson moved for approval of Z-87-
3, as recommended by staff. Commissioner Sims
seconded.
Commissioner Munson brought up the question of the
lot line adjustment.
The Planning Director stated that was one of the
conditions worded in the resolution. He
mentioned that was what the Planning Commission
would be approving with this motion.
Motion carried, all ayes. 6-0-0-1.
Mr. Kenge Ling
CDS Engineering
11802 Skypark
Irvine, CA.
Mr. Ling mentioned that they would be against the
lot subdivision and it would be too costly.
The Planning Director informed the Planning
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Commission that they could change the one lot
subdivision condition or if not the applicant
could appeal to the City Council. He further
explained that the City Engineer wanted the one
lot subdivision because he needed the corners set
and markers on the lot.
Commissioner Sims added that with this project
there would be some dedication on the ingress and
egress to Barton Road therefore, due to the public
dedications the map would be needed.
Mr. Ling mentioned that additional dedications
were approved in 1985.
Commissioner Sims clarified that he was speaking
about the interior of the parcel and that
easements were required for ingress and egress.
Mr. Ling referred to condition #3 concerning the
public access to the project site from Barton
Road. Also, conditions #7 and #8, access and
easement requirements.
The Planning Director stated that the easement
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requirements for the ingress and egress have not
been formalized, he would have to refer to the
City Engineer. He stated that the intent on
those was to provide access to that particular
apartment project only which was under the same
ownership as this property. Whether they were
intending to do that through recorded easements or
not, staff has not researched this.
Commissioner Sims stated that the project of the
retirement home dated 1985 clearly pointed out
that easements were required for ingress and
egress. He stated to the applicant that in order
to satisfy the conditions a one lot subdivision
would be required.
Commissioner Munson mentioned to the Planning
Director that this issue had already been voted on
and the only recourse the applicant would have was
to go before City Council on an appeal.
The Planning Director stated that the Commission
could pass a motion to resend the earlier motion
if they wish to change that condition.
Vice -Chairwoman Van Gelder asked the applicant if
he understood that he could appeal this decision
to the City Council.
The Planning Director clarified that an appeal
would not even be necessary. This would be going
automatically to the City Council and the
applicant could simply request that the condition
not be made part of the approval.
PLANNING COMMISSION DISCUSSION ADJOURNED 8:OOP.M.
SITE AND ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW CONVENED AT 8:00 P.M.
No items for the Site and Architectural Review
Board.
SITE AND ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW ADJOURNED AT 8:00 P.M.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:10 P.M.
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Respectfully Submitted,
Dav d—R. - Wyer
Planning Director
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Approved by:
Nor �arn CaouefHe ,____
Chairman/Planning Commission